| 695 | 696 | 697 | 698 | 699 | 700 | ||||
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| Report of Select Standing Committee, Private Bills, Mr. Smellie .......... | 695 | |
| Introduction of Bills, Nos. 79, 63, 77, 68, 43, 64, 44, 69 ................... | 695 | |
| Proposed Resolution, re Winter Employment Act (Mr. Thompson) ..... | 696 | |
| Question: Mr. Olikow (Mr. Thompson) .............................................. | 697 | |
| Correction: Hansard, Mr. Wagner ...................................................... | 697 | |
| Announcement, Carman Fair, Mr. Hamilton ....................................... | 697 | |
| Committee of Whole House, Supply | ||
| Agriculture and Conservation: Statement, Mr. Willis ........................... | 698 | |
| Water Storage Charges ................................................................ | 702 | |
| Drainage Districts, Municipalities, Territories ................................. | 702 | |
| Conservation Districts .................................................................. | 704 | |
| Water Supply Districts ................................................................. | 706 | |
| Livestock Promotion .................................................................... | 707 | |
| Attorney-General: Statement, Mr. Lyon ............................................. | 708 | |
[Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker.]
MR. SPEAKER: Receiving Petitions
Reading and Receiving Petitions
Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees.
MR. R. G. SMELLIE (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the first report of the Select Standing Committee on private bills, standing orders, printing and libraries.
MR. CLERK: Your Select Standing Committee on private bills, standing orders, printing and libraries beg leave to present the following as their first report. Your Committee met for organization and appointed Mr. Smellie as Chairman. Your Committee, that for the remainder of the Session, the quorum of this Committee shall consist of seven members. Your Committee examined the petitions of: Dario Perfumo and others, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate "Council 1107;" Richard Spink Bowles and others praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate Builder's Trust Company; Manitoba Health Service praying for the passing of an Act to amend an Act to incorporate Manitoba Health Service; Earl Malcolm Campbell and others praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate the Wildewood Club; E. R. R. Mills and others praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate Grand Chapter of Manitoba Order of the Eastern Star; Guaranty Trust Company of Canada praying for the passing of an Act respecting Guaranty Trust Company of Canada and the Western Trust Company; Folkert Plantings and others, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate the Greater Winnipeg Society for Christian Education; Mark H. Danzker and others praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate the Red River Exhibition Greyhound Racing Association, and find that the rules of the House have been complied with and the required notices given.
Your Committee also recommends that the fees paid in connection with the following petitions received by the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly at the Second Session of the Twenty-fifth Legislature be refunded, less cost of printing: The petition of Dairio Perfumo, Keith Routley and others, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate Council 1107; the petition of Arthur Parker, Hugh Mailey and all, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate the Denturists Association of Manitoba; E. R. R. Mills and others, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate The Grand Chapter of Manitoba Order of the Eastern Star; the petition of Folkert Plantinga and others, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate the Greater Winnipeg Society for Christian Education; the petition of the Manitoba Health Service, praying for the passing of an Act to amend an Act to incorporate Manitoba Health Service; a petition of the St. Charles Country Club, praying for the passing of an Act to amend an Act to incorporate St. Charles Country Club; the petition of Earle Malcolm Campbell, James Arthur Eldridge, and others, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate The Wildewood Club; the petition of the Greater Winnipeg Transit Commission, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate the Greater Winnipeg Transit Commission; the petition of Western Trust Company and Guaranty Trust Company, praying for the passing of an Act confirming an agreement between the Western Trust Company and the Guaranty Trust Company of Canada; the petition of Builders Trust Company, praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate Builders Trust Company, all of which is respectively submitted.
MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Hamiota, that this report be received.
[Mr. Speaker put the question, and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried.]
MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. James, that the fees paid in connection with the following petitions received by the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly at the Second Session of the Twenty-fifth Legislature be refunded less the cost of printing. These are the ten petitions that were referred to previously.
[Mr. Speaker put the question, and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried.]
MR. SPEAKER: Notice of Motion
Introduction of Bills
[Mr. T. P. Hillhouse introduced Bill No. 79, an Act to incorporate the Red River Exhibition Greyhound Racing Association.]
[Mr. W. B. Scarth introduced Bill No. 63, an Act to amend an Act to incorporate the Manitoba Health Service.]
[Mr. W. B. Scarth introduced Bill No. 77, an Act respecting the Guaranty Trust Company of Canada and the Western Trust Company.]
[Mr. A. J. Reid introduced Bill No. 68, an Act to incorporate The Greater Winnipeg Society of Christian Education.]
[Mr. J. Cowan introduced Bill No. 43, an Act to incorporate "Council 1107".]
[Mr. J. Cowan introduced Bill No. 64, an Act to incorporate the Builders Trust Company.]
[Mr. M. E. McKellar introduced Bill No. 44, an Act to incorporate the Wildewood Club.]
[Hon. J. Thompson introduced Bill No. 69, an Act to incorporate Grand Chapter of Manitoba Order of the Eastern Star.]
HON. J. THOMPSON (MInister of Labour) (Virden): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, to consider the proposed resolutions standing in my name.
[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried.]
MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for St. Matthews take the Chair?
MR. THOMPSON: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution, recommends it to the House.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Winter Employment Act by providing for an extension of the period of winter months during which projects may be undertaken under the Act and a consquent increase in payments to be made from the Consolidated Fund in respect of such projects.
MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, the original Act which we passed in connection with the winter employment covered only the period until April 30th. The proposed Bill extends the period until May 31st; that is an additional period of one month, and makes all projects undertaken under the plan during that month -- brings them under the right to the contribution of the Federal and Provincial Government. As members are well aware, the federal authorities extended the winter employment plan until the 31st of May, and we are doing likewise in this Bill, and we are making retroactive, our contribution to these projects.
MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK, Q.C., (Ethelbert Plains): Mr. Chairman, do these projects come under the provisions of the Canada-Manitoba Unemployment Assistance Agreement - I guess that's what it is called?
MR. THOMPSON: No, I woulld say that they do not come under that plan. The come under the Winter Works Program, which was introduced last autumn by Ottawa, and which we covered by a Bill of the House last autumn - by an Act of the Legislature.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: Are these expenditures, Mr. Chairman, over and above those made under that agreement?
MR. THOMPSON: I'm sorry I ...
MR. HRYHORCZUK: I say these are -- expenditures, are over and above those made under that agreement.
MR. THOMPSON: These expenditures are extending those made under that agreement for an additional month.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted?
MR. G. MOLGAT (St. Rose): Mr. Chairman, I believe the information was given, but I'm sorry I haven't got it here; what was the total expenditure last winter, under this -- the Act that we were then operating under?
MR. THOMPSON: I could furnish the details on second reading. I believe -- you mean Manitoba's expenditure?
MR. MOLGAT: Well, actually I would be interested in knowing the total amount of money that was spent; how much the federal contribution was; how much the municipal contribution was; and how much the provincial contribution was.
MR. THOMPSON: Yes, I would be happy to give all those details on the second reading of this Bill.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? Will the Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker.
MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House has adopted a certain resolution and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Central, that the report of the Committee be received.
[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried.]
[Hon. J. Thompson introduced Bill No. 11, an Act to amend The Winter Employment Act.]
MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.
MR. D. ORLIKOW (St. John's): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct several questions to the Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs. I tried to get in touch with him before the session today, to give him notice and he wasn't in; I left a message and if he didn't get the message, I suppose that he'd take them as notice. The first question is, has the Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs seen this morning's Free Press account about the complete and feudal domination of the Northern Townsite by the big mining companies; if so, what is his view on the story? Secondly, has the Minister given consideration to renegotiating these inexcusable agreements negotiated by the former government; and thirdly, is it true, that union organizers are not now permitted to visit the Kelsey Site, where a power plant is being built for the government; and if so, does this not contravene the rights of workers to join unions as provided for under the laws of the Province of Manitoba?
MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question, which was - have I seen the Free Press story on Northern Manitoba, the answer is "yes", I have seen it. In connection with my view on the article, I would say that the delegation which apparently released this story to the newspaper visited me about ten days ago in connection with the housing situation at Snow Lake; and I asked the delegation to present a brief on that subject, which we would take under consideration. The matter involves the move of several miners from Flin Flon who are employed by Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company to the new mines at Snow Lake and they are concerned over the housing situation in that centre. I requested them to present a brief on that issue and that brief has not yet been received. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, who was present with the delegation, received a telegram this morning, saying that that brief on the issue would be forwarded by these gentlemen on Friday of this week. So until we receive their brief on the issue, we are, of course, unable to give it consideration. I can only say that when we do receive it, it will be given our full consideration.
On the second question, of whether the government has considered renegotiating contracts which have been made by the former regime in connection with the mining centres of Thompson, Lynn Lake, and Snow Lake, I might say that we have not at the moment considered any renegotiation in that respect.
The third question, is it true that union organizers are not permitted to visit Kelsey? In my opinion, that is not true. As far as I know, union organizers can enter Kelsey or any other citizen can enter that area. They may have a problem, of course, in obtaining accommodation and in obtaining food, but there is nothing to prohibit them from entering that area.
MR. ORLIKOW: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. If they can visit there, would there by any objection to their camping and cooking such as there was, and the Minister knows because we went into it some considerable detail last summer, such as there was at Thompson?
MR. THOMPSON: In answer to that question, I would say there would be no objection to that because Thompson was under a Town Planning Scheme and to my knowledge, Kelsey is not under any such scheme, and I think that it would not be improper for any individuals to enter and set up their accommodation somewhere in the Kelsey area.
MR. P. WAGNER (Fisher): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to have some correction in the Hansard of July 7th, in the afternoon. When I was speaking on the Old Age Pension, I said that the social workers, to chase around the country "screening" who qualifies for assistance, and this reads "screaming". It's on page 641. And also on page 653, when I was discussing the weed control, I stated in disorganized territories - since you haven't got a council - and it reads a "township." I said "council" and it reads "township."
MR. WM. H. HAMILTON (Dufferin): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would
like to send a cordial invitation to all the honourable members in this House to attend the Carman Fair, beginning tomorrow. It's the 80th Anniversary of the Dufferin Agricultural Society, and we're going to have a grand 4-H Rally tomorrow -- one of the largest in the province -- stock judging contests and a bang up day for everyone, extending to Saturday night, and you are all cordially welcome.
MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister. The Honourable Member for Selkirk.
MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I further crave the indulgence of the House and ask that this matter be allowed to stand until the First Minister returns.
MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Second reading of Bill No. 8 -- the Honourable Minister of Agriculture.
HON. ERRICK F. WILLIS, Q.C. (Minister of Agriculture and Immigration) (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, if I have the indulgence of the House, I'd like to have this matter stand.
MR. SPEAKER: Stand. Committee of Supply.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried.]
MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for St. Matthews take the Chair?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We stopped at B. (3).
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, yesterday I was asked a very large number of questions to all of which I did not have the answer with me. And today I desire to answer some of those particular questions.
The first one has to do with the Pasquia River Land Settlement Project. This project involved the protection of approximately 120,000 acres of land lying southly west of the Town of The Pas, and south of the South Saskatchewan River. The Federal Government undertook the construction of the primary dykes to control the flood waters from the Saskatchewan River and the province is carrying out the construction of the secondary drainage and roads in the project. The Federal Government will complete the protections works and the primary drainage in 1959, and the secondary drainage and roads will be completed in 1960. The provincial works are under the supervision of the Lands Branch of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources.
And then in regard to a group of projects on which I received questions: The Burnt Lake Drain Project; this project will be completed this year. The estimated expenditure for 1959 will be $58,000, which is shared jointly by the PFRA and the province, with some municipal contribution. The excavation is 90% completed; the road crossings to be completed this fall.
The Icelandic River Project: This problem area has been investigated by PFRA and a resport will be forthcoming very soon. No construction is planned until the report is received.
Fish and Dennis Lakes area: This area has been investigated by PFRA and a report will be forthcoming. No construction is planned at this time. These are the main projects in the Interlake area.
Then the member for Ethelbert asked one or two questions. And in particular, a question stating that the 1958-59 estimates of the Department of Agriculture and Immigration show a vote 6-15A covering gross expenditures of $490,000 less recoveries from the Government of Canada of $275,000. He asked the question: Where's the comparable item in the current year's estimates? This item is consolidated in the capital supply total of $2,721,995 of which funds in the amount of $300,000 are allocated for soil erosion and water control. The province has assumed the total cost on a number of projects. In others the total costs have been paid by the province but a recovery of 50% was received from the Government of Canada. In others, the province has assumed payment of total costs with a recovery of 50% from the Government of Canada. I was asked to indicate as to which of these was entirely federal, which entirely provincial, which was shared as between the province and possibly the dominion and the municipalities, if any. In this regard, there were four projects financed entirely by the province. Fishing River project; they bought also a Brillion grass seeder and grass seed; Investigations and experiments re pasture improvement - Interlake and Westerlake areas where an amount of $5,935.36 was spent; and we also undertook drainage on sections 5 and 6 and 9, township 30 and range 22 west first in the rural municipality of Ethelbert amounting to $920.99.
Then there were the projects which probably I could bulk together. There were the projects on Wilson Creek, Edwards Creek, Mineral Creek, Burnt Lake Drain, Pipestone Creek, another one on Pipestone Creek, McLure Creek, Steep Rock Dam and Access Road, and Pine River Headwater Storage. On all of these the costs were shared between the Dominon Government and the Provincial Government. The total amount in all was $154,067.74 of which the amount paid by PFRA was half or $77,033.83. I could give the honourable member the breakdowns if he wanted it, but I assume that that will be sufficient for his purposes.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, since the Minister asked me that question, I thank him for the very illuminating explanation of last year's spending in the appropriation. I wonder if he could do the same for the estimates of this year - the current year.
MR. WILLIS: Yes, I think so. At least in part of it anyway. In the Wilson Creek Watershed I have a statement in regard to it. The main work carried out in 1958 included construction of access roads and trails and the installation of a comprehensive system of metering equipment and rainfall gauges. Aerial photography was paid for and enlarged aerial maps were outlined for this area. Total money spent in 1957-58 was $20,970.18 which was shared equally by the Federal and Provincial Governments. The program in 1958-59 was actually a continuation of the program of 1957-58 and included considerable expenditure for construction of an access road and two major installations for stream metering purposes. Total money spent in 1958-59 was $40,612.11. The proposed budget for 1959-60 is as follows: (a) Road repairs, etc. - $3,000.00; (b) Completion of metering sections, riprap, seeding, trimming, gauge house installation - $2,000.00; (c) Wages and expenses for assistant to PFRA - paid technician - 5 1/2 months - $1,500.00; (d) Accommodation and transportation for technician and assistant, including construction of portable storehouse - $1,000.00; (e) Experimental stream clearing - $3,000.00; (f) Experimental toe protection, channel training, willow planting, rock work - $5,000.00; (g) Plot studies, tree and grass plantings and exclosure construction - $2,500.00; (h) Headwater dams - four earth dams, ranging in height from 10 to 16 feet: No. 1 - $6,000; No. 2 - $4,000; No. 3 - $3,500; No. 4 - $3,500; - Total $17,000; and contingencies $5,000 -- making a total of $40,000.
This work is being supervised by Mr. C. Stanton, PFRA and close co-operation and liaison is maintained with provincial departments and the Federal Parks Board. This is a five-year program.
Then there were other projects asked about. The Seine River diversion; there has been a continuous program here. The program has not stopped. The program is still continuing. And we are paying five-sixths of the cost. This project was started last year. The first contract for excavation covering approximately 5 miles easterly from the Red River will be completed within about two weeks. The contract has been let for the control structures at the outlet into the Red River. Tenders for the second phase of the excavation covering approximately five and a half miles will be called soon, with the balance of the excavation to be carried out in 1960. The completion date of the project is scheduled for 1961.
The municipalities are assuming one-sixth of the cost up to the maximum expenditure of $1,800,000 on the following distribution; Hanover is paying a lump sum of $10,000; Springfield a lump sum of $5,000; the City of St. Boniface is paying 17% of the one-sixth; Municipality of St. Vital - 21% of the one-sixth; Municipality of Ritchot is paying 21% of the one-sixth; Municipality of Tache - 21% of the one-sixth; Municipality of Ste. Anne - 21% of the one-sixth. There is no Dominion contribution.
The Board recommended that by deepening the Fairford River Channel and constructing a control dam, the lake elevation could be controlled at a mean monthly elevation within the range of 811 to 813 at an estimated cost of $1,600,000. No decision has been made on it yet because it is tied in with the general flood control projects.
The Red River floodway survey: Item 6-15-B3 in the estimates - a sum of $25,000 is included for surveys and investigations on the floodway. This work is underway and to date the Branch has concentrated on the location of a route to diver flow from the Red River above St. Norbert as was recommended in the report of the Royal Commission on Flood Cost Benefits. This section will be completed within the next ten days, and we will then continue the location surveys northerly from the Trans-Canada Highway towards the outlet into the Red River near Lockport.
Also for the benefit of the Member from Gladstone, I desire to inform him that the Gladstone Watershed, Whitemud, is the only one that's been approved in Manitoba to date.
Also for the benefit of the members, I have here the report on Lakes Winnipeg and Manitoba. I'd be glad to give a copy - one copy to the Leader of the Opposition and one copy to the Leader of the CCF Party -- and to quote, but briefly, from the report, and there is a summary of the findings in regard to it. And just to make a brief quotation from it on page 54, it says, "Having regard to the $10,000,000 costs of Lake Winnipeg regulation as indicated above in relation to the value of the advantages that would be derived therefrom for flood control alone; and having regard to the findings set forth in the next succeeding paragraphs, the Board finds this project to be impracticable under present circumstances."
MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): What project is that?
MR. WILLIS: Lake Winnipeg. You'll find it on page 54 of your book.
MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, but I mean, what is the project that it's speaking of?
MR. WILLIS: This covers all the special regulation of Lake Winnipeg. I assume that previous to that it sets it out in detail. All this is doing is referring back, summarizing the conclusions in regard to what goes forward in the previous 50 pages.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I just want to get the particular project that the Commission had said it viewed as impractical at the present time and I think the Honourable the Minister of Health and Public Welfare is correct that that is the damming of the Nelson... [Interjection] ... rather the control works on the Nelson River.
MR. WILLIS: That's right. Then also in regard to Lake Manitoba there is a brief summary here which would just summarize their conclusions on page 57 to the advantages that would accrue to practically all interests from regulation of Lake Manitoba for flood control, at an estimated cost of $1,600,000 - the board finds this project to be practicable under present circumstances. In other words, it agrees to one and it doesn't agree to the other. The details, however, are there and there are about three more volumes in regard to this and a lot of maps for anyone who has the time to read them, but this is the book which includes the findings and includes the summary as well. Those are, to the best of my memory, the questions which were asked yesterday to which I have now brought answers.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to seem to be persistent in following my questioning, but if I understood the Minister correctly, he only gave us projects with a total cost of approximately $40,000 that would come under the item that we were discussing yesterday. He still hasn't given us any idea what the recoveries from Canada will be for those items, and I might point out, Mr. Chairman, that the $40,000 compares to last year's $490,000. Now, there's one other question. Insofar as the Seine River is concerned, he told us the total cost would be $1,800,000 spread over five years if I understood him correctly. The municipalities would bear 1/6 which is $300,000 and the province would bear the balance of a million and a half. A five-year project, that comes to $300,000 a year. Has provision been made and where, for the spending of this $300,000 in the current year?
MR. WILLIS: It is in the Capital Estimates.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: And I don't receive an answer to my first question I suppose -- of the recoveries from Canada?
MR. WILLIS: Well, I assumed that the answer which I gave you covered that, namely $300,000.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: I understood that was for last year's breakdown, not for the current year.
MR. WILLIS: I take that to mean from my memorandum here, this year that we will get $300,000. I will double check.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: Would the Honourable Minister have any objections to giving us a breakdown on the Capital item here?
MR. WILLIS: I can give it to you broadly. Agriculture Research - $937,695; Soil Erosion, Water Control and Drainage Projects - $1,034,300; Seine River, Lake Manitoba, Red River Flood Protection - $500,000; Lower Red River Valley Pipeline - $250,000; Total - $2,721,995.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I understood the Minister to say that the question of
the Fairford River Control Works he was not prepared to report on now, because that question was tied in with the overall flood program, or something of that kind. But I think the statement that was made at the fall session, was that it was tied in very definitely with the cost-benefit survey that was being put in hand at that time; and the question was asked last night as to whether that survey had been completed and if the report is available with regard to it, or if the conclusions are available.
MR. WILLIS: I'll inquire about that and if it is available, I'll report to the House.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, that's what the Minister said last night and I realize that he had a good many of these questions to deal with. The only point that I make in not wanting to leave the matter in abeyance too long, is that this is the item on which it should be discussed, and I'd be quite willing to defer it until other items have been passed here if the Minister could get it during that time.
MR. WILLIS: Is it a full report on the Fairford River, that you would like to have?
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the report of the Lakes Winnipeg and Manitoba Board of which he's just given the Honourable the Leader of the CCF and myself copies of the summary -- that is the report so far as the overall investigation was carried on, and I think it's correct to say that out of the money investigations that that Board made, that the only one that was unqualifiedly recommended was the construction of control works at the mouth of the Fairford River as the Minister just mentioned. That one was recommended. Now, at the fall session, if my memory serves me correctly we asked what was going to be done on the basis of that report, because it happens that a good many of us -- the Honourable Member for St. George, the Honourable Member for St. Rose, the Honourable Member for Gladstone, myself and others, all have constituencies which border on Lake Manitoba and we're all particularly interested in that work going forward. So, we were asking at the time of the fall session about it, knowing that it had been recommended by the investigating board. And at that time we were told by the First Minister that quite promptly on receipt of the report of the Board, that a cost survey, a cost-benefit survey had -- or study had been put into effect, and my recollection is that the First Minister said at that time that he expected it to be ready quite soon, that they were doing it with all possible speed. Quite frankly, I've never heard of it since and I have no doubt that it has been finished and I can quite see how the government would want to have the results of that survey before they make a definite announcement on their plans for the Fairford River Control Works -- but it's the benefit, the cost-benefit survey or study that was started last summer or fall and on which, I think, the government intended to base its decision re early or later action on the works on the Fairford River.
MR. WILLIS: I know, Mr. Chairman, that such a survey was ordered. I've not seen the report but I will seek it this afternoon. It may be in the Premier's office, I don't know but I will seek it.
MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, if my memory serves me correctly, the Premier announced in this House that the cost-benefit survey had been completed and it was feasible to construct the control works on the Fairford River.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: I have one final question, Mr. Chairman. In connection with Bill No. 8, which is allowed to stand today, I believe that it is anticipated that there'll be some costs in connection with projects under that particular Bill, and I was wondering, Mr. Chairman, where is the appropriation for the anticipated cost of the projects under Bill No. 8? Where do we find that in the appropriations?
MR. WILLIS: It's under Conservation Districts, that's the Watershed legislation.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, that's only administration, there's nothing for costs of projects there, only $16,000 all told.
MR. WILLIS: We have also, of course, the water control projects in the other item which amounts to $193,400 which could easily come under that as well.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I might point out that the item on the left-hand side shows a $150,000 spent last year without this re-organization. Surely there must be a bigger expenditure than that anticipated?
MR. WILLIS: There are those two items in regard to it. There's also an item on Capital of Soil Erosion and Water Control of $300,000. You have the large item in Capital under Soil Erosion and Water Control of $1,034,000.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I asked the Honourable Minister a question on Monday I believe. How many applicants were turned down under the agriculural credit scheme, and he told me that he's going to tell me at a later date. Has the honourable member the answer now?
MR. WILLIS: I will get it for the honourable member. I regret that I haven't got it here. I thought we had finished with that item and maybe we have, but I'll get the figure for you.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said that no decision has been made by the government to go ahead on the control works on the Fairford River. Am I correct in assuming then that because no money has been voted that no work will start this year?
MR. WILLIS: That's not necessarily so. Of course governments can always get money for projects by special warrants if they want to do so.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister gave us the details on the Wilson Creek in quite detail, but just one question: I believe there are two Wilson Creeks at least that I know of in the Province of Manitoba. Is this the one in the McCreary district, the eastern escarpment of the Riding Mountain or is it referring to another Wilson Creek?
MR. WILLIS: I regret that I do not know all these creeks.
MR. MOLGAT: We call ours a river.
MR. WILLIS: You call yours the river?
MR. MOLGAT: Yes.
MR. WILLIS: That's an exaggeration, isn't it?
MR. MOLGAT: Definitely.
MR. CAMPBELL: Not in the spring.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (4) Total - $400,025; (5) Water Storage Charges: (a) Amortized payments to Government of Canada...
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, last year there was another item under this same general appropriation under Sanitary Control Commission. It doesn't appear under this general heading of Water Rights and Resources. Does it appear elsewhere in the estimates? [Interjection] ... We can discuss it under Health later on.
MR. WILLIS: I know the members will be happy to know that at least today I have the right estimates. Yesterday I didn't. There were two series of estimates printed, each one which looked exactly the same on the front. Yesterday I discovered that I was in here with the wrong estimates, so I had to consult with various people as to what they were talking about. I hope it won't occur again.
MR. CAMPBELL: I presume it would be the Department of Methods that would be in charge of printing the estimates, would it?
A MEMBER: The Treasury Board.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 5 (a); 5 (b); (c) Less - Recoveries from Power Users.
MR. CAMPBELL: Now, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the drainage districts, is it proposed that they will carry on just the same as formerly and not be directly under control of the Water Conservation Board, or whatever the new authority is called?
MR. WILLIS: They will carry on as before but so far as -- as and when available -- the engineers will be available for any other work there as well. What we think that we will have to do is to increase probably the number of personnel to cover all the whole water front, if I might call it that, but they will still carry on that work and Tommy Weber, who was in charge in the past, will continue to be in charge in the future. But in regard to the Conservation Branch, and Water Control Branch, he will become the Chief Engineer of the Water Control Branch.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, we will continue to have the Boards that were set up under the -- to administer the ...
MR. WILLIS: Exactly as before.
MR. CAMPBELL: Just the same as before ...
MR. WILLIS: That's right.
MR. CAMPBELL: Then we will have these Boards that are contemplated under the Water Conservation Act.
MR. WILLIS: Under the Watershed Legislation.
MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to prejudge the question, but offhand, isn't there some element of duplication there? I can see where the Minister is quite right in suggesting that there will be an interlocking of the personnel -- I think that's all to the good -- but
after all to have boards on the Drainage Maintenance District and boards -- and new boards set up on this other one. However, that rate can be discussed on the Bill itself.
MR. WILLIS: It'll be most of the same men.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, as far as these drainages are concerned, I'm a little bit confused in our area. At times I used to come in the past and even now, and somehow I have a hard time to find out whether it's a provincial drain or whether it's a federal drain or whether it's got to be done on 50-50 basis; and some people get paid for their land that the drainage come through, some people don't get nothing and some people get a dollar and others don't get even a dollar, and then for that dollar some people get 66 feet cut through their land and they don't get a culvert, and then they are asked to pay $100.00 for getting a culvert to cross their land, and other people get the culvert, don't pay nothing.
Could the Honourable Minister kindly brief me, when I get out in the country who qualifies for what and how it goes, or is it not the time to ask this question?
MR. WILLIS: Now is the time. I don't wonder as far as the member is concerned that sometimes he has difficulties in regard to it. I've only been at it 11 years; I get a little confused myself at times. The main difficulty is that you're in unorganized territory. You don't have a municipal council to speak for you; indeed you have no one to speak for you except you speak for yourself on your district, and you speak often, if I may say so. And as far as these districts are concerned, in some cases we have been able to persuade the P.F.R.A. to do certain drainage work there and we try to get them to do as much as possible. On the other hand, there are serious difficulties which are faced. In many parts of your country you can drain a farm worth a $1,000.00 by $3,000.00 of drainage, which is not a wise expenditure. And that is your difficulty. In addition to that you have very good land in some places and you have -- the approaches to it are very bad and your drainage is very bad as well. And yours is not expensive land, and if one were to put in all the roads that 2 1/2 million dollars worth that you presented us the list of last years, or if they were to get all the drainage as well, the cost on the roads and the drainage would greatly exceed the cost of the land which was drained -- and that is the problem. Where you get a larger block of good land, you'll get more services, you'll get more roads, and you'll get more drains. But where in some cases settlers go off by themselves into a place which is farily wet, in some cases a swamp, it's most difficult to give them the services which they would like to have and which we would like to give them.
If I might tell the honourable member the time that he is safe is when he gets a letter from the engineer in his district or the Deputy Minister or the Minister, then he has it, and that is O.K. But to say that there's a pattern, would be not correct. It is a pattern where in the judgment of the engineers of the department, a work is worthwhile. Where, by putting in some drainage, we can spend one dollar and get ten back for the settler, that's what we want to do. But in some cases there is very little that can be done because the cost which is necessary in order to do the drainage or the roadwork is worth far more than the land which is drained. Therefore in that regard there must be a discretion and we're spending large sums of money in your territory. Some people ask us why we spend as much there. You ask you why we spend so little. But we spend very large sums in your area trying to help those people who are there, many of them many miles apart from each other. I think we'll have to just work along together in regard to this problem, and you certainly have our sympathy but you can't get all our money.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Honourable Minister for a good comfort he gave me, but a supplementary queston to that, and I hate to say it but it seems to be broadening out. Now, these ditches, who does the final decision where the ditch is going to go -- I'm not going to discuss the road -- where the ditch is going to go and which area it's going to serve. And I'll just let you in into a rumour, and it could be proven. And if I asked before the Conservative Government come in there was a tendency of ditches built or even roads where there was more or less a Liberal support, now, that way. Now, I don't say it was done. It was a rumour and certain people make statements that they can prove that. Now, since the Liberal Government was defeated, we have a Conservative Government and we have some strong Conservatives there, or I would say defeated candidates. They say that they carry their weight, they tell where the ditch is going to go or is not going to go. If they say that it's
going to go there, then it's going to go there, but as far as the Member of Fisher or the Public Works is concerned, that's neither here nor there. So I would like the Honourable Minister to correct me whether I'm right or I'm wrong, who sets where the ditch goes and if any defeated or a good Conservative supporter has any power to go to Public Works or the Minister and say "Now look, this area is not supposed to get a drainage because that's all C.C.F., or it's all the Liberals. This area should get because it's all Conservatives." Is that true or not?
MR. WILLIS: We have no map on which we map out where the Conservatives are. I haven't the faintest idea of one point in your constituency where there are many Conservatives. All I know is, there're too few Conservatives there -- that's the only thing I'm sure about. But each year the district engineer in your area brings forward to the chief engineer a series of recommendations of the work which he thinks will serve the most people where they'll get the most value for the money expended.
Let me assure you, and I think any member who has been in this House any length of time, let me assure you that as far as the district engineer is concerned, he doesn't have any politics, or if he does he conceals it with great care lest he get in trouble. And therefore there's no question in that regard because he isn't out to build political roads. Governments change, you see, he might be out of work, and therefore, very wisely, whether the Liberals are in or whether the Conservatives are in, the men in the department, the district engineers don't have any politics. And I don't know the politics of any of them. And they haven't told me and I don't expect they will. Because, after all, although we have confidence we'll be here for a very long time, nevertheless we might be defeated before the engineer retires, and then he would be in trouble. So that we have a good group of engineers, and they don't have any politics and they're not asked to do political jobs; but they come in here with recommendations which go to the chief engineer who discusses them then with the Deputy Minister and then he lays a program of work for the year before me.
MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): In other words, you don't have to be a Conservative to get anything in this ...
MR. WILLIS: That's right, Sir. We build a lot of C.C.F. roads.
MR. CAMPBELL: I listened with much interest to the statement of the Honourable the Member for Fisher and I think that he made his point completely, and that was, that while it was only an unconfirmed rumour that such things existed under the Liberals, that it looks as though it's pretty well established now.
MR. WILLIS: Have your fun, boys, have your fun.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (c) (1), (2), (3), (4). Total - $991,975.00. (d) Conservation Districts: (1) Salaries.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, this is the item where we would discuss the new set-up, I presume.
MR. WILLIS: This is the Watershed setup.
MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, the new one, the one that Bill No. 8 establishes. Is that correct?
MR. WILLIS: That's right.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, Mr. Chairman, one thing I would like to say, where I can heartily agree with the Minister of the department is when he said that they were getting the very best men available to act on this commission. So far as the three that he named are concerned, Jack Griffiths and Jack Parker and Bill Schortinghuis, I certainly don't think that they could get better. Those men, in my opinion, are first-class and if they give them a proper setup I'm sure they'll do a fine job. But to the one that will be appointed by the government after the legislation is passed, I can make no comment, but so far as those three are concerned, I think they are quite outstanding.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Griffiths will be the chairman.
MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I understand that. Any one of them would make an excellent chairman. I think that perhaps the choice of chairman is perfectly all right too. I've a very high regard for all of them. But the place where I do disagree with what the Honourable the Minister said in his general statement, when he first introduced this subject, is when he spoke about the public getting a run-around in the Department of Public Works before this program was thought of or introduced, because I don't think at any time the public got a run-around there.
I think that surely the Minister wouldn't want it to be thought that in the ten years that he was in charge of that portfolio before, that the public were getting a run-around. It may be that this new setup is better. I'm not at all critical of it. We'll look at the Bill when it comes before us. But just because it may be an improvement is no reason in my mind to deprecate what's been done in the past, because when people came in here to the Department of Public Works there were engineers available to talk to them, and other people, and I think that they did not get passed from one official and one branch to another with them disclaiming responsibility. I think that our record -- even at the time when the Honourable the present Minister of Agriculture was Minister of Public Works, even at that time I think that they got fair and reasonable treatment.
Now, the one question that I'd like to ask, and I know that these questions can come up in the Bill, but as regard to the general situation now, I understood the Minister to say that this board would have the authority to deal with individuals and individuals might qualify for financial assistance. Now, that's exactly the point that the Honourable Member for Fisher has been talking about, that in unorganized territory, or disorganized territory, it's perhaps necessary to deal with individuals although I think there is a local administrator there who is available for some purposes. But is it correct to say that there will be financial assistance under the new setup available to individuals apart from municipalities?
MR. WILLIS: Yes, it is contemplated that that will be done and also that the whole matter is centralized around one man, even though he is assisted by excellent men, but he's the man who devotes his full time to it and nothing else, that is Mr. Griffith. And if I said they were given the run-around, what I meant was this, that it did occur in many cases that a farmer would have his land flooded and he would come in and he would go to the drainage district which would appeal to him as being the logical one and they would tell him that he wasn't in the drainage district. So then he would go the Department of Public Works and enquire from them and they would say, well, that's from the overflowing of a river, that's where you get your trouble, therefore, you should go to the Department of Mines and Natural Resources to discuss it with them because that's where the river, navigable streams, is under control. That's what I meant, that even for a well-informed man, it was difficult in the past to know where to go with his problems. We contemplate and anticipate that in the future it will not be, and that there will be a controlling centre in regard to these various organizations and that will be Mr. Griffith. His office will be able to take care of the problem and they won't have to go to another department but they will be able to get their answer in that one location. And that's the way in which we think that efficiency will be greatly increased.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I think it's where there is a municipality though and in the vast majority of the province, the settled part, there is a municipality to deal with it - I am sure that the program would be, and I certainly think it should be, to deal through the municipality. I think that has usually been the case, that that's a pretty well established procedure that individuals should approach the department through the municipality first because they should work in the closest co-operation with their own municipality; and secondly, because their own municipality will likely be financially involved as well in any program that is undertaken.
MR. WILLIS: I agree entirely with what the Leader of the Opposition has said. The only thing is you do have occasions where the individual finds himself in considerable difficulty. It's only a matter of passing interest, but just this last week a man came to see me in regard to a difficulty which he had. The municipality had built a market road across his place and it had flooded the entire field for him. He went to the municipality and asked them for redress and asked them to do something about it and they refused to do so, so he sued them and got judgment against them, but he didn't get this dyke or road removed. He was still flooded. And he came to us in some desperation saying "What do I do know? I've sued this municipality, and I've got judgment in the courts, and they have paid me so much money in regard to it, but what do I do now?" It was just one of those stubborn municipalities that thought they were right in the first case and that I am hopeful that the big board might be able to handle those by persuasion, if by no other means, to just put a culvert under this drain, which is a simple matter. I sent two engineers out and they said it was a very simple matter if the municipality would just do it, but to date they have refused. He may have to sue them again.
MR. N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, under the item that we are presently discussing, conservation districts, arrangement had been made for two salaries, I believe. And inasmuch as the Honourable the Minister indicated that the Whitemud River watershed was the only watershed established in the province, I suppose that one of the men wil be appointed for the Whitemud watershed area, or it is to be hoped that that is so. Even though no money may be spent in the watershed area this year, a great deal of work can be done on a farm-to-farm basis. I would just like to read one short paragraph to point up what I mean by that and this is from this little bulletin "Your Watershed". It says, "Management of soil and water resources is most readily co-ordinated through the watershed approach, this means utilizing land and water resources to develop maximum wealth in both human and economic values, and at the same time maintaining the productivity of the land. The watershed approach starts with an on-the-farm management program. This may involve altering the system of farming so that soil losses caused by wind and water are avoided; this may mean planting the steep slopes to grass and the badly eroded slopes to trees and using crop rotations which will maintain rather than exhaust soil fertility," and so on. So that even though in the watershed areas we may not be planning a huge program, we could well be served by having a director or an expert stationed in the area right now and proceed with this program on a farm-to-farm basis. It is to be hoped, as I indicated earlier, that one of the men, or two, since there is only one area established, may be stationed in the Gladstone-Neepawa area in the immediate future.
MR. WILLIS: While I don't want to talk about the advanced setup, the setup in regard to conservation follows pretty closely the same as the drainage boards and you will have an outstanding engineer as the chairman of that board. He will give you the service which you need and also you will have available plenty of financing from the water control and conservation for whatever purposes are needed. You are, I think, fortunate that at the moment you are alone as far as the conservation districts are concerned and that you are the first watershed and, therefore, you might get greater attention than would otherwise be the case. I think you are most fortunate but your own people should have the credit for that. They had the enterprise to go for the legislation which was here. They took advantage of it and they've done a good job and they will reap the benefits.
MR. CHAIRMAN: ... 2. Salaries vote $10,000.00. Water Supply Districts (1) Salaries.
MR. W. C. MILLER (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, is this the item under which the lower Red River Valley water authority would be operating?
MR. WILLIS: This is money supplied for the new Act which is not yet before the Legislature.
MR. MILLER: Well, I realize that, Mr. Chairman, but the Minister gave us a breakdown of the capital supply and I noticed that he mentioned an item of $250,000.00. Is that in connection with the water pipeline in that area?
MR. WILLIS: That is what it says.
MR. MILLER: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) passed, (2) passed - Total, $10,700.00 - passed. There are one or two items that stood here, Mr. Minister.
MR. WILLIS: I think we just had one item to stand there, so that we could at a future date discuss crop insurance if the members wanted to. Is that agreeable to the Leader of the Opposition? That we have one item stand and pass the rest? Or may we pass them all? I would prefer to pass them all and give you the assurance that an opportunity would be afforded to you of discussing crop insurance.
MR. CAMPBELL: As far as I am concerned, I would be quite willing to take that assurance.
MR. WILLIS: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: All right then, that brings us to 15 (a) (1) (2) Total vote, $81,800.00. Is that a completion?
MR. CAMPBELL: I think the one that is ...
MR. WILLIS: No, no, one on the other side.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (3)
MR. CAMPBELL: The one on the other side 3, and (3).
MR. WILLIS: That's right.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 3 and (3) - passed.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, that's the one that deals directly with livestock - Livestock Promotion and Club Grants, and under the heading of Livestock Promotion, I take that to be the various policies of the government, and it is in that connection that I was asking with regard to the new program that the Federal Government has introduced. I understood the Minister to say yesterday that his deputy had been in touch with Mr. Luke Piersol in Ottawa and he had been told that no information was available as yet. Is that... ?
MR. WILLIS: That's true. Dr. Bell, the deputy, was in touch with Mr. Piersol and he said the policy had not yet been fully formulated and no information was available now.
MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you...I wanted to read to the House so that they would be informed of what the Minister of Agriculture in Ottawa said, just a kernel of his statement, because I think this is tremendously important to the livestock producers, particularly as I see it, to the hog producers. There is a long discussion in the Hansard of April 10th, and I'm certainly not going to burden the patience of the House by reading a lot of it. But this is Mr. Harkness speaking, and he is critical of the fact that two different papers, the Ottawa Citizen, and the Financial Post have both been making comments on this policy, that he does not agree with. And after a considerable statement that I will not read, and I am sure this is not out of context in any way except that he refers to the Financial Post when he mentions letting the market take its own course. He says, I presume that's what the Financial Post would be in favour of and the reason that he says that is because he has previously been talking about one of their articles. Here is Mr. Harkness' statement: "The whole idea of this change in operation is that the government will not buy pork and will not therefore have any marketing headaches. The marketing will be in the hands of the normal trade, where I presume the editor of the Financial Post would like to see it because they are always saying that the free play of the market should determine the price. That is what the situation will be when the new plan goes into effect. We will not be doing any marketing of pork at all. We will pay the farmers the difference between what he gets in the market place and the price support announced." The question that that raises in my mind, and I didn't see it raised by any of the Members of the House of Commons but I may have missed it, but what I see in this is that if the idea of this so-called deficiency is to establish a support price and then leave the market, as the Minister says, to respond to the action of supply and demand and then pay the farmer - the producer of hogs, the difference between what he gets on the market and the support price, then it seems to me that one of the effects of that would be to undo something that our Department of Agriculture here has been trying to do for years and that is to encourage as even as possible a production of hogs through the year. Now I know that that is not possible, to achieve that completely, but I think it has been one of the programs of both the federal and provincial departments of agriculture to try and get as level marketings as possible, to try and encourage summer marketings of hogs through the slack months. Now my point is that if this is going to be the program, and apparently it is, and it seemed to me that in the months of heaviest marketing with the price left to supply and demand to determine, that the price for hogs would likely be at their lowest at that time, and it would mean that the deficiency payment would be at its highest, which would seem to me to indicate to the producer that they might just as well market at one time as another. It would give no encouragement at all to the summer marketings of hogs or the light month marketing that has been a program I think for many years hence. If the Honourable the Minister has not had an opportunity to consider the program, I'm not going to press the point at all, but it seemed to me that it was something that should be advertised to the hog producers of Manitoba so that they could make representations to the federal government if they wished to do so. It is interesting to note, Mr. Chairman, that in the discussion in Hansard, and I saw the same reported in the daily press, that Ottawa certainly doesn't do as well as we do in some regards, and that is that there seems to be little likelihood that this particular Bill is going to go to a Committee at all. In other words, it will be dealt with just in the House and that people from - representatives of the public don't get an opportunity to make any representations on it. Well, as bad as we are, we at least don't do that anyway.
MR. WILLIS: Would the Leader of the Opposition give me the date and the page so that I can follow that and try to be helpful?
MR. CAMPBELL: It's Friday, April 10th, Volume 103 No. 55 this year, of course, and the discussion extends over a great many pages, but what I consider the key point of it that I read is on page 2581.
MR. WILLIS: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 3 (b) - Passed. Resolution No. 26, Agriculture $1,123,160.00 completed. VII - the Attorney-General. 1. Administration (a) Salaries.
MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, there are a number of items of concern to my department, and therefore to the record of this government, which I would like to bring to the attention of the House at the outset of these estimates today. I would hope that the honourable members will forgive me if I refer more closely to my notes than I usually do. I think they will appreciate that it is because there is a fair amount of statistical information and other information upon which I should like to be accurate when I make statements. It may not be out-of-the-way to note that we are starting a hailstorm, so I am informed. I don't know if that was brought on by the opposition or whether the backbenchers behind me wanted this to happen. [Interjection]
May I say, Mr. Chairman, that it has always been my conception of the Department that I head that its primary function is to attend to the efficient and the equitable operation of the administration of law within our province. Law, as we all know, is the bedrock of our democratic parliamentary system; to countenance inroads into this prime area of government responsibility; to undermine the whole structure of democratic government.
MR. M. GRAY (Inkster): Just pardon me a minute. It is impossible to hear. I wonder if we could have a recess? And I don't think there is a quorum here either.
MR. LYON: Many of those things which all of us are inclined to take for granted, namely a respected and an impartial magistracy, a caterer of full-time and part-time crown legal staff supported as they are the soul of our judicial system without which it could not properly function. I have no hesitation in saying, Mr. Chairman, that this province has been well served by those charged with varying degrees of responsibility in our judicial system both at the present time and in the past. My aim -- one of my prime aims is to ensure that the public can continue to look to these officers with respect and confidence in the years to come.
I should like to discuss now, Mr. Chairman, some of the plans that we have made and some of the action that we have taken in my department.
First and foremost, as I have already mentioned, is the preservation of a qualified staff to administer our law enforcement agencies. To the end that continuity and years of experience bring greater excellence in performance in professional fields, we undertook last year, effective January 1st, 1959, to revise the salaries of most of the professional legal staff of the department to bring them more into line with prevailing incomes of their counterparts in similar positions in other provinces and indeed, their counterparts in the profession in Winnipeg and in the rest of Manitoba. We are hopeful that by this action we can retain a greater number of our senior personnel whose responsible positions cannot be filled overnight without some loss to the public service. These increases must not be looked upon as expenditures alone, rather, I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that they are investments in the future. My senior barristers in the department, permanent crown attorneys, are at the present time probably among the youngest in Canada by reason of the fact that since 1948 the department has undergone an almost complete changeover in staff which resulted in the loss of a number of highly trained and skilled practitioners to the more lucrative fields of private practice. I can report to the House, Mr. Chairman, that we have been fortunate in recruiting excellent replacements and I would say in those remarks that my predecessor, the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains, was as well fortunate in recruiting excellent replacements for the men that he lost during his tenure of office. The men that are now serving in these positions are a credit to the department and indeed are a credit to the whole legal profession. We want to ensure that insofar as is within our ability, they remain with us to continue giving of their specialized services. We hope that we have at least partially shored up one of the apparent weaknesses in the former administration by setting a more realistic salary schedule which we hope will manifest itself in a continuation of longer service by those on our staff.
Similarly, the lay personnel have been accorded deserved salary increases with a like view in mind. You cannot have an effective civil service if it is not a satisified civil service. In this field I would make particular mention of probation officers, court officers and staff, and gaol guards whose day to day endeavours breathe vitality into the efficient working of the department. The extension of the 40 hour week on December 1st, 1958 to all personnel in
institutions, including gaols and detention homes, has been another step in the direction of making more equitable the difficult conditions under which some of these persons labour. Undoubtedly, we will find other areas where former customs or practices of other days must be remedied, but we can say that we have made a significant beginning in the continuing task of insuring for the department a happy, a contented and an active staff.
If I may for a moment, Mr. Chairman, I should like to deal with a few smaller matters in connection with the department before moving on to gaols and institutions. Members of the Committee, Mr. Chairman, will have noticed recently some newspaper reports to the effect that accused persons appearing before the magistrates in the City of Winnipeg Police Court are now being advised of the existence of the Legal Aid Committee of the Law Society of Manitoba. I think, also, that members of the Committee will realize, Mr. Chairman, that the largest police courts in Manitoba are, of course, located in the City of Winnipeg. Last summer saw the completion of a second court to handle the increased volume of cases and the appointment of a second full-time magistrate to preside in that chamber. We understand that this move has permitted rapid reduction in outstanding unheard cases and generally has expedited the judicious handling of cases from those courts. The criticism sometimes heard that one magistrate had insufficient time to give proper consideration to his ajudications can no longer be justified.
In the field of legal aid to indigents, I am happy to confirm the reports that have appeared in the press that the Law Society of Manitoba, through the work of volunteer barristers, is continuing to give splendid professional service to the province. I think few persons realize, Mr. Chairman, the contribution which the profession makes of its own volition in this field. I have been in regular touch with the criminal branch of this committee and can report that we both share the same aim, namely, to ensure that wherever possible a person will not appear in court charged with a serious indictable offense without benefit of counsel merely because he cannot afford such counsel. There have been criticism in some cases - in the odd case, I would say perhaps justified criticisms, that occasionally accused persons appeared and pleaded guilty to serious offenses without knowing their privilege to engage counsel through this Legal Aid Committee. From that situation has flowed the demand for the appointment of a public defender by the Crown. I have no hesitation in stating to the House, Mr. Chairman, that I wholeheartedly subscribe to the principle that no man should be denied counsel especially when charged with a serious indictable offense under the Code. In our superior courts, the department had met this need for many years by paying counsel according to a modest tariff when those court-appointed barristers have placed an accused offense before them. The factor missing in the police courts of Greater Winnipeg under the old system operated by the Law Society was that the communication to the accused of his right to counsel, regardless of financial status, was not always made. To that end, initially, I issued instructions to the magistrates and the Crown Counsel in the City Magistrate's Court, first of all, to advise accused persons, while a better scheme was being worked out in conjunction with the Law Society. I am now able to report that we have already embarked on a trial basis; we are going to see how this works, and if it works properly we will spread it to the rest of the province. I am hopeful -- I am hopeful that the Law Society will be able to spread its Legal Aid Committee throughout the length and breadth of the province; but we are embarked on this plan whereby accused persons appearing in the City of Winnipeg Police Courts charged with indictable offenses will be advised in open court, and is now being advised in open court, (a) whether or not he is represented by a lawyer; (b) that he is entitled to be represented by a lawyer; and (c) that if he desires counsel but cannot afford counsel, his request for counsel will be referred to the Law Society and his case remanded to permit counsel to be appointed. To date I am informed that the number of requests since this system began operating a short time ago, the number of requests to the Law Society has increased appreciably, and we are hopeful that the scheme will prove beneficial to those persons unfortunate enough to be appearing as accused persons in City Magistrate's Court. I can't state, of course, Mr. Chairman, that this system will overcome the whole problem but it is an attempt at it, and we hope that it will meet the need of those few cases where through ignorance a man may not be fully aware of his rights. I would stress again my belief that this volunteer plan is, in my opinion, from the number of years spent in this field, much superior to a government appointed public defender and, furthermore, it is a credit to the Law Society of Manitoba and its members for the service which they are extending.
In connection with the Law Society of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, I should like also to mention that in a related field where the counsel and advice of the profession can be utilized to the benefit of the public, I can report that at the present time we are giving close consideration to the establishment of a law reform committee as an advisory committee to the Attorney-General. such a committee would be composed of representatives of the Law Society of Manitoba, the Manitoba Bar Association, the magistracy, County Court Judge representation, and the Superior Courts of Manitoba. Its primary function would be to review, consider, and recommend to the Attorney-General upon judicial decisions affecting Provincial Statutes; and to concentrate the best thinking of the profession upon such other public statutes which are used daily by the profession. A committee of this kind provides considerable assistance to both the profession and the government of Ontario, and if further discussions with the Law Society and the Bar Association indicate room for such work in this province, we will undertake the necessary steps to establish in at least on an ad hoc basis, I would hope in the near future.
I'd like at this time, Mr. Chairman, to give a very brief report on the commission which is enquiring into leasing practises in south-western Manitoba. The government, as you are aware, has established by Order-in-Council a one-man commission to investigate and report upon oil leasing practises carried on in the province, particularly as they affect the south-western portion of this province. Members of the Committee will recall, Mr. Chairman, that during the active leasing stages there was considerable activity in this field approximately seven to nine years ago. A good number of cases have come to light, where through ignorance of their rights or implied misrepresentation, farmers and other owners of mineral rights signed away these rights and agents of companies who are active - to agents of companies who are active in the leasing field. The result has been that a substantial number of cases have come to our courts, substantial in view of the limited area affected, where leases have been set aside and rights restored to the original owners. In the Province of Saskatchewan, as the committee is no doubt aware, a large scale enquiry was completed late last year, the report of which was received early this year by your government, and certain steps were recommended by that Royal Commission which sat there. But I wouldn't suggest for a moment, Mr. Chairman, that our problem in Manitoba is of the magnitude of that found in our sister province to the west. The government feels and felt the need to ensure that our citizens were not denied their legal right was paramount and, therefore, the commission was appointed. I can report that I believe approximately a dozen meetings have been held by the commissioner in south-western Manitoba. He has heard representations and submissions from farmers who were affected. He has heard representations and submissions from leasing agents and from one or two of the companies involved. I'm advised at the present time that there will be a further hearing on the 13th of July, and I am hopeful that the report from this commission will be available perhaps before the House meets in 1960.
I come now, Mr. Chairman, to that branch of my department, namely, gaols, juvenile detention homes, in which we found a fair amount of work to be done and in which some strides have been made over the past few months. Overshadowing all developments in this field was the Dominion-Provincial Conference on penal reform which was convened by the Minister of Justice in October of 1958. Members of the Committee will recall, Mr. Chairman, that this conference was convened to discuss the implementation of certain of the major recommendations made in the Fauteux Report. I have no hesitation in saying that much was accomplished at this conference and the course of penal reform not only in this province, but in Canada as a whole, has been marked for years to come. I can give no more than a summary of the conclusions reached at the conference with some side comments as to their ramifications in Manitoba. First and foremost, it was agreed that the Dominion Government should proceed to plan for a revised penal system of such character that it would be in a position to assume responsibility for persons sentenced under federal laws to terms of one year or more. Such plans are to be formulated on the basis that the Dominion Government will have decided that sentences under federal laws of more than six months, but less than one year, should be eliminated. This decision, Mr. Chairman, means that upon implementation of the new scheme will see this province responsible for the custody of only those adult prisoners sentenced to terms up to six months. Sentences between six months and one year will be abolished. Prisoners sentenced to terms in excess of one year will enter federal institutions which will be
operated and controlled and paid for entirely by the Federal Government. This is perhaps the greatest single conclusion reached by the conference and it will be readily appreciated that its impact on our gaol system will be tremendous. The reasoning behind the new distribution of power as between the Federal and Provincial Governments is this.
One of the greatest impediments in the road of penal reform in Canada since Confederation has been the arbitrary rule that prisoners sentenced in excess of two years go to a Federal Penitentiary while those sentenced to terms of two years or less go to provincial institutions. In the past, this system resulted, and at the present time it still results, in widely different modes of treatment of prisoners serving in provincial institutions. The Fauteux Commission recommended most strongly that the greatest need in the penal system in Canada was that of uniform rehabilitation treatment across the country. If this objective was to be realized, they stated that the Federal Government must assume responsibility to all those prisoners requiring modern rehabilitation treatment. In result it will see Manitoba responsible on the basis of today's adult gaol population for only a little more than half of the persons presently incarcerated in provincial gaols.
Now I don't want, Mr. Chairman, I don't want my friends in the press gallery immediately to quote me as saying that the present population in Manitoba is going to be reduced by 50% immediately upon the implementation of this report. The reservation I make is this, that on the basis of those serving sentences today, the population would be reduced approximately 45%. Of course, projecting our thoughts into the future, we don't know whether Magistrates or Superior Court Judges will have a tendency to sentence more people to terms between one and six months, or more people to terms in excess of twelve months, because those will be the two great areas in which the division will manifest itself. But, generally speaking, I think it is safe to say that it will result in a considerable reduction - a considerable reduction in our gaol population or our adult male and female gaol population once this system is instituted. It will also see this province enabled to establish proper training facilities for the limited group of persons falling into the one day to six month classification. The Federal Government, on the other hand, will establish in Manitoba and other provinces new institutions which are geared to accommodate those men and women sentenced to terms in excess of one year and who, as a result of receiving such sentences, will be presumed to be in need of advanced and continuous rehabilitative training and treatment. Theoretically, the overall plan is based, as the experts tell us, upon the idea that an offender in need of rehabilitation can only receive that type of training if he is incarcerated for a period long enough to permit proper exposure to the rehabilitative treatment procedures.
I would say in connection with this matter, Mr. Chairman, that the planning committee set up by the Minister of Justice was in the province very recently; that they toured Headingley Gaol; they also looked at the new minimum detention wings out there, the one wing built by my predecessor when he was in office and the wing that was completed by ourselves last fall. And of course one of the purposes of their trip to Manitoba is to determine whether or not the Federal Government should negotiate with us for the purchase of Headingley Gaol, if they deem that institution to be a satisfactory institution for the implementation of their new non-penitentiary plan or whether or not they must consider the necessity of building a new institutation either in Manitoba, or as has been suggested, perhaps on the border of Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Of course I can't record on results of that committee's inspection here, but they are taking back their reports to Ottawa, and in due course, we expect to be advised of their deliberations.
Conclusion number two reached at this conference was that when planning had proceeded to a sufficiently advanced stage, representatives of the Dominion Government would meet the representative of each of the provinces to consider upon what basis effect was to be given to the arrangements contemplated in the foregoing or number one conclusion, and as I have already mentioned, the planning committee was sent out to Manitoba for this purpose.
The third conclusion was that it was agreed that the responsibilities with reference to the custody of female prisoners should be the same as those for male prisoners, subject to special consideration being given to the custody of French-speaking female prisoners. It was further understood that the Government of Canada would give consideration to the establishment of one or more additional institutions for women across Canada. Members of the committee are no doubt aware that the only Federal Penitentiary at the present time to house women is located at
Kingston, Ontario, and there was considerable voice expressed by those of us representing the western provinces that an institution of that sort should be established in the west for the very simple reason that it would permit relatives, friends, husbands, and others who are genuinely interested in the welfare of the prisoner, to visit them much more readily than can now be done if they must journey to Kingston for that purpose. As we all know and appreciate the visiting of prisoners can be a very important factor in the rehabilitation of a prisoner, and that is why that suggestion was put forward at the conference.
Fourthly, the value of the work of after care agencies was recognized and consideration was given to increased financial assistance by the Federal Government. The officials of the respective governments are to study the matter further with the view to arriving at specific recommendations. In this regard, Mr. Chairman, I can report to the Committee that this government recognizes the extremely valuable work being carried on by the John Howard and Elizabeth Fry Society in Manitoba. You will be asked in the course of these estimates to approve of an increase in the provincial grant to that society from $5,000.00 to $10,000.00 for the fiscal year 1959-1960.
Fifthly, it was agreed that arrangements should be worked out to encourage regular visits by judges and magistrates to those penal institutions to which they would be sentencing prisoners. In this regard, Mr. Chairman, members of the House will no doubt recall that I convened the first Annual Conference of all police magistrates in Manitoba in December last. This was a three day conference which sat in these buildings and at which practically all police magistrates in Manitoba were registered. Various topics such as sentencing, administrative practices, the value of probation work, work of the John Howard Society and so on were discussed during the business portions of the conference. While gathered together the magistrates were taken to the Marymound Home for Girls, Headingley Gaol, Stony Mountain Penitentiary, Portage Gaol for Women and the Home for Boys at Portage la Prairie. I have received reports, Mr. Chairman, from several of the magistrates present at that conference and they report to me that in their opinion they felt it was an outstanding success. All of them have agreed that a similar conference should be reconvened no later than 18 months to 2 years from the first, and I can report, Mr. Chairman, that I am in hearty agreement with that recommendation of theirs. I personally feel that the comparatively small expenditure involved for such a meeting is repaid one hundred times over in the improved service which these men and women can give to the public in Manitoba as a result of what they gained from such meetings. There are other recommendation of a minor nature made to the conference, some of which did not apply directly to this province. I might mention just while on -- briefly on the subject of magistrates that we did -- one of the recommendations forthcoming from their conference was the question relating to their salaries and we did make some adjustment in their salaries approximating around $300.00 per year, that is to the magistrates who are employed on a part-time basis and who carry on the practice of law in their regular business hours.
I'd like now, Mr. Chairman, if I may, to turn briefly for a moment to Headingley Gaol. While the course which the province will be taking in the field of penal reform has been more or less effectively laid out as a result of the Dominion-Provincial Conference, we were faced within a week actually of taking office, with the problem of insufficient accommodation at the main penal institution in Manitoba at Headingley. In July the population of the gaol averaged 50 to 75 men in excess of what the gaol could properly accommodate. This is according to advice that was given to me by the Superintendent. I was warned by the members of my staff that with the coming of winter the situation would in fact become impossible because of the usual seasonal increase in population. I may say, just as an aside, that they warned me that the population would be well in excess of 500 prisoners, and their warnings were founded on sound judgment because during the winter months we did have populations at times ranging as high as 530 prisoners at Headingley Gaol. Faced with this situation we instructed, as members of the committee will recall, instructed that a second minimum detention dormitory be built immediately at Headingley Gaol, based on the plans used for the first minimum detention wing which was built during the office of the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains. Now the reason for that of course was, number one, this building that was built by the former government was found to be an exceptionally good building for the purposes for which it was constructed and, secondly, we did not want to have any great delay in the preparation of architect's plans or anything of that nature at all, so we
immediately proceeded with the plans that were available from the old institution; built the new one on a slightly larger scale; and of course it is now occupied and in use. Tenders were advertised in July of 1958, the contract was awarded in August and it was completed in early January and the actual interior work was completed on the 13th of February of this year. From that date until March the 11th, because of a slight drop in the gaol population for those weeks and before the building was occupied, we were able to take nine additional guards who were hired to staff the new wing and give them special in-service training for one month. Other members of the custodial staff were also trained during this period. This represents a departure from previous practice which apparently did not permit staff to be hired or given in-training prior to being put on active duty.
The new wing has a maximum capacity of 96 inmates consisting of three dormitories of 26, and a fourth of 18. Eleven months is the average length of sentence of inmates now in the new wing. Five months is the average length of unexpired sentence of inmates quartered there. As a result of this additional accommodation, Mr. Chairman, the Superintendent and his staff are now able to begin on what we hope will be an expanding program of segregation of inmates at Headingley Gaol. As an example, the following factors are taken into consideration in selecting inmates for this new minimum detention wing. First of all, is security risk. An inmate with a short time left at the end of a long sentence or a previous good record of conduct is given primary consideration. Secondly, the length of sentence. That is, inmates serving from seven days to two months, generally speaking, are also considered as prime applicants. Thirdly, emotional stability and physical strength. These are factors which must be taken into account for those put into this new minimum detention wing. Fourthly, preference is given at all times to young inmates 17 to 25 years of age whose behaviour warrants their being confined in minimum detention quarters. Fifthly, the segregation of offenders such as known sex deviates or drug addicts is still carried on in the main building, and these persons of course are not eligible for placement in the new wing. Six -- the type of work being performed by the inmate, that is outside jobs such as garden crew, etc., are also taken into consideration. I want the Committee to understand, Mr. Chairman, quite clearly, that these initial steps toward segregation represent only a beginning of what we hope will be a suitable plan to handle all prisoners at Headingley Gaol during the period of the next two years approximately or thirty months, before the impact of the new Federal-Provincial scheme will be felt. During this period we feel that valuable work can be done and we are trying to do it at the present time to improve vastly the situation at that gaol before it reverts over to an institution responsible only to prisoners serving terms of up to six months. There's room for much progress in this field in Manitoba and I can assure the Committee, Mr. Chairman, that this government does not intend to stand idly by while the rest of Canada moves ahead in this vital field of correctional reform.
Further in connection with the question of correctional reform, I would point out to the Committee, Mr. Chairman, that one example of the steps which can be taken, and which will be taken as soon as money is voted for this purpose in Manitoba, is in the field of correctional camps. The Committee will be asked to approve certain appropriations which will provide for the establishment of such camps in this year's estimates. My staff have been working on a plan whereby inmates will be taken out under qualified supervision to work on provincial projects such as land reclamation, forest sanitation and so on. The plan has been worked out in conjunction with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources and we are hopeful that it can be undertaken this year. It may be only a hope at this stage but those were our intentions of course when the estimates were first drawn. We are hopeful that it can be undertaken this year if time permits.
The Director of Corrections was sent to the Province of Saskatchewan, and I have no hesitation in saying that, where he was able to see such a camp in operation. In addition, material was made available from the Province of Ontario where they also have such camps and from the Maritimes where similar types of camps have been in operation for some time. Our plan is that in the first stage prisoners will be recruited for these camps from Headingley Gaol primarily. Either mobile or prefabricated bunkhouses built in sections will provide accommodation for the men while they're out on the field. A truck or some other type of motor vehicle will transport men and supplies to and from Headingley Gaol. Food, clothing and other supplies will also come from the gaol. The work projects, and these I would
mention to the Committee are only examples of the type of work project that we feel can be started, the work projects selected in co-operation with the Department of Mines would be as much as possible of a non-competitive type so far as the labour market is concerned, such as land clearing and improvement work which would not otherwise be undertaken. A possible example of such a project of land clearing and improvement might be the Catfish Creek area near Pine Falls.
The work projects, it is anticipated, will be selected by the following points in mind. Firstly, providing inmates with a sense of accomplishment resulting from some form of constructive work which they can do with their hands and their heads. Secondly, providing the inmates with the opportunity to learn good work habits including the ability to work co-operatively with their fellow workers. Thirdly, undertaking work which will likely not otherwise be done and thereby benefit the citizens of this province as well as of the particular area concerned. Fourthly, selecting projects from which a monetary return may be anticipated, at least at the outset, thereby making the correctional camp wholly or partially at least self-liquidating. The camp program would involve an eight hour work day for five and a half days per week. The final half day of the week would be spent in cleaning up the camp. On the sixth and seventh days, the camp personnel would be returned to Headingley Gaol for a weekend rest, relaxation and the spiritual services, movies and other forms of recreation which are found there. While at the camp, recreation in the form of volleyball, horseshoes, fishing where possible, card playing and so on, would be encouraged by those in charge of the camp. It is proposed that the inmates would be paid a small per diem rate for their work. This money will be held in trust and be paid to the inmate upon discharge. Assuming that an inmate was able to work at such a camp for a three month period, the pay would be gauged to provide him with approximately $50.00 or more or his discharge, an amount which would be of considerable assistance toward his rehabilitation on release, considering that at the present time only one dollar is given to prisoners on release.
The staff for the camp would be recruited largely from Headingley, from the Headingley Gaol staff, and there would be a work foreman to guide the men on the particular projects involved. The capital and operating outlay for such a project, as members of the Committee will see, is not large when it is remembered that for the first year at least, and I'm speaking now of the present year, that is 1959, we would anticipate establishing only one camp, if time permits, for the maximum worker capacity of about 50 to 60 men. And again I make no bones about suggesting to the Committee, Mr. Chairman, that this again is a beginning. Fifty or sixty men out of a population -- the average population at Headingley last week was something in the area of 335 prisoners -- it goes down considerably in the summer -- fifty or sixty out of that number is practically only a fifth or a sixth, but at least it's a beginning on it. We can't begin to employ all of these prisoners at work camps but at least we can start, so that those who are most amenable to this type of correctional treatment and training will at least have the opportunity to have that and be subjected to that type of rehabilitation and treatment while they are in an enforced stay at our gaol. Plans are being made to dove-tail these correctional camps into our anticipated needs when the new Federal-Provincial Penal System is implemented. Now, members of the committee will appreciate, Mr. Chairman, that when we do resolve ourselves down to the situation when we have only prisoners serving terms from one day to six months, we must accommodate ourselves now and not get into too large a capital program of this nature because our need, that is the numbers who will be available for this type of correctional camp work will, we hope, diminish as the next few months, the next thirty-odd months go by.
During my time in office, Mr. Chairman, I have made it a point to visit personally every penal institution under the control of this department. In all cases I have found that the department has been blessed with very competent staffs who have carried out to the utmost of their ability - sometimes in plants which were in need of extensive renovation and some of them still are in need of extensive renovation or even replacement. Portage la Prairie Gaol for Women, as an example, is extremely well operated, but the physical plant is taxed to the fullest extent of its capacity. Similarly, the existing facilities at Brandon, Dauphin and The Pas are fully occupied, but the addition of the new quarters at Headingley Gaol, we are hopeful
that we can overcome the need for the addition of any extra space to any of these plants prior to the implementation of the federal-provincial plan which, as previously mentioned, will see a diminution of our gaol population. Even with the introduction of the new plan, Mr. Chairman, we are forced to give consideration to the building, I would say within the next three to five years, of a new gaol for northern Manitoba. Preliminary studies which I have had undertaken on this project indicate that with the completion of the townsite of Thompson and the present expansion of Churchill and other towns in the north, there will be an economic justification for some sort of institution to service all of those areas. The alternative is to bear an ever-increasing transportation cost for the transport of prisoners from those points to southern Manitoba. I can assure the Committee, Mr. Chairman, that we do not propose to centralize common gaols for men and women at Headingley and Portage la Prairie. Some regional decentralization, while it does involve some duplication of some facilities, is necessary and advisable in the interests of a long range rehabilitation program, and in the interests of long range economy. It is not expected that a decision on the building of the new gaol in the northern area will be necessary immediately, although temporarily some steps will have to be taken to renovate the present facilities at The Pas which, generally speaking, are not at all satisfactory.
The record of the previous administration with respect to the Home for Girls might be the subject of a long debate in this House, but it is not my purpose at this time to shovel over old coals. My purpose at this time merely is to tell you what we have done and what we propose to do in the future. On assuming office last year we found that there were no completed plans, that is, plans and specifications for the construction or erection of a Manitoba Home for Girls. We started out with rough sketch plans which were provided by the Provincial Architect. It is true that property had been purchased on the Drewry Lane site, property which we are now utilizing for the building of this new home, and in concert with officials of the department and representatives of interested volunteer organizations we made many modifications to these bare outline plans which the previous administration had left us. We called in independent architectural advice from outside, and in concert with the Provincial Architects Branch, a completely new set of plans was drawn up which went through several stages of alterations upon advice of leading persons in this field in Manitoba and elsewhere. As it happened, there was a meeting in the fall of this year in Winnipeg of a number of people outstanding in the correctional field, a number of people who had actually been working in the field of youth rehabilitation for some years and we were fortunate enough at that time to have our plans at a stage where they could be showed to these persons and, as a result of that, we were able to gain much advice from them - advice based on practical experience. Such little things as where you place a "rad" so that it can't be torn out of a room; such little things as whether or not you put a grill over a sunken light; small things, but things which are all part and parcel of the proper operation and proper building of an institution of this type.
I feel, Mr. Chairman, that the final plans which have been approved represent certainly the best thinking available in Manitoba on these institutions. The plans will provide a workable and practical compromise between the pure cottage type of institution and the older and less favoured centralized institution.
Some of the features I think the Committee would like to hear - some of the features of the new home will be as follows: Firstly, provision is being made for a maximum amount of supervision with a minimum amount of staff through connection of the cottage units with the main administration building; Secondly, three completely separate units housing fifteen girls each, and containing nine single rooms in each unit along with two or three bed-dormitories. In other words, that will permit those girls who are properly suited for it, to have single rooms and it will permit those girls who react best in the company of others to remain in somewhat of a form of dormitory atmosphere all in the one wing. Each unit or cottage, while completely separate from each of the other units, is connected by a hallway with the administration building where the diningroom and classrooms are located. This obviates the necessity of the girls having to go outside during inclement weather. It also discourages absconding, while providing for that degree of segregation which is given by the pure cottage system. Fourthly, each living unit has its own rumpus room and sitting room or lounge. Fifthly, there is a large gymnasium to provide a maximum amount of recreational activity. It will also serve as a meeting place, for entertainment such as picture shows and other
shows which the delinquent girls may put on from time to time for the entertainment of their parents or visitors when they come to the Home on occasion. Sixthly, ample classroom space has been provided for teaching academic subjects as well as for home economic subjects such as cooking and sewing. Seventh, the administration building provides accommodation as well for a small infirmary, the social workers offices, an admission unit and disciplinary cells.
I can give a short report at a later date to the Committee, if it wishes, on the progress of the building. I would say this, that anyone who happens to be driving north on Main Street, out past Drewery Lane, I think it would be worth your while if you dropped in, Mr. Chairman, to that site and you can see, at least on the ground, the type of structure that is going up. I would be more than pleased at any time to show in detail the plans to any member of the Committee who is interested in them. The tentative completion date for the new Home is on or about the first of December of this year. The Home was put out for tender, of course; the lowest tender received was in the area of $445,000.00, and we feel that for that expenditure we are getting a building which will be worth every cent which the public is putting into it.
As I said before, Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention at this time to hash over old coals, particularly not to has over old coals in the face of persons who occupied this office prior to myself. Because I, for one, realize that it is not an Attorney-General who makes a good Home for Girls; it is not an Attorney-General who makes better accommodation available at Headingley Gaol; it's the whole government. But the government must work with the Attorney-General, and when the Attorney-General takes plans before the government he must have some sympathetic understanding and consideration of those plans before he can make any progress with them. But I would like to point out this to the House, that on the basis of the builder's construction index costs which are available to anyone, on the basis of those index costs we can see that had this Home been built in 1953 when it was first being considered, based on the present price that we are paying for it, it could have been built for $62,700.00 cheaper than we are building it today. Had the Home been built in 1955, it could have been built for approximately $47,000.00 cheaper than we are building it today, and my submission to the Committee, Mr. Chairman, is that the Home was as much needed in 1953 and in 1955 as it is needed today. I would point out, somewhat hesitatingly because I don't intend to get into a political argument on this point, but I would point out that this is perhaps an example of how procrastination in a field such as this, how the desire, or the inability to spend one dollar can sometimes cost you two dollars if you don't do it at the right time, aside together from the question of the needs of the children, the delinquent children, especially the delinquent girls of this province.
We can report to the Committee that in the meantime we have been continuing to operate the Dynevor site, with a much reduced population averaging around 10 to 12 girls. The bulk of the girls committed to homes in Manitoba are going to the Marymound Home which is being, has been, and will be utilized as the main Home for Girls until the new quarters are available late this year. I would be certainly remiss if I did not, at this time, pause for a moment and pay some tribute to the Board of Directors and the staff of the Marymound Home for the wonderful way in which they opened up their institution to the government on request. We were faced when we came into office with the situation where a number of girls were being quartered at Dynevor; we were faced, as members of the Committee will appreciate, with situations where girls, for reasons of their own were absconding from the Home every other day on some occasions. I'm not saying that they absconded just because the Home was in bad shape, because as the Honourable Member from Ethelbert Plains knows perhaps better than I, girls or boys will sometimes run away for any reason in the world, and he knows as well as I, and perhaps will corroborate when I say it, that if you were to put some of these children in the Taj Mahal they would still abscond from it because that is just the very nature of children who, unfortunately, are of this frame of mind. But we did find that the Home was unsuitable in many respects. We placed the situation before the members of the Marymound School and they quite welcomed the admission of Protestant girls to this institution, until such time as we could prepare proper quarters for the reception of these girls. Members of the House who have had occasion to visit the Marymound Institution will know that it is one of the finest institutions of its kind in western Canada, and of course, the new plant that is there was built through the co-operation extended by the former administration - I'm not trying to take anything away from the former administration in that regard at all - through money that was loaned and through money which was given as an outright grant to that institution, the new plant
was built. But that new plant, I suggest, is a credit to the province. The only point with which I would differ with my honourable friends opposite is that, having helped to build such a wonderful plant I fail to see why they failed to take advantage of the facilities that were offered there on a temporary basis until they got their own home going. That is in effect what we have done. I think the thanks are due from the government and from the people of Manitoba to those connected with the home for the work which they are able to do with the girls, and with the new facilities that they have there.
Members of the Committee, Mr. Chairman, will be asked in the -- will recall that they were asked -- will be asked in the Throne Speech to provide for an expansion of probation facilities outside of Greater Winnipeg. The reasons for the expansion of this service are quite clear when the following facts are understood. On assuming office we found that the rate of recidivism or of repeaters in our provincial adult institutions was running approximately between 65 to 70%. We also found that the average cost of maintaining an inmate in Headingley Gaol, as an instance, was approximately $3.73 a day, or on the average $1,361.45 a year. The cost-benefit study of adult probation service reveals that the average cost of maintaining a probationer during 1958 was only $61.96, approximately one-twentieth of what it cost to maintain a prisoner in gaol. Furthermore, since this government subscribes to the principles laid down in the Fauteux Report, namely, that a gaol should be utilized as a last resort and as a last resort only, and only for those incorrigibles whose past record demands incarceration, we could see immediately the moral and humanitarian advantage as well as the economic advantage of the small but successful probation scheme which was set up by the previous administration and was operating when we took office. Of the 329 probationers under supervision, and these figures are as at December 31st, 1958, the incidence of recidivism established during 23 months, since the service was in operation, was established at the very low rate of 9%. In other words, while approximately 65 to 70% of those in gaol would probably return, only 9% of those on probation to date were in any further trouble with the law. The cost-benefit study also indicated that during 1958 a net savings to the taxpayers of Manitoba in excess of approximately $190,000.00 resulted from the adult probation service. Had this service not been available, Mr. Chairman, it is estimated that approximately one-half to two-thirds of the offenders would have received gaol sentences averaging nine months each. Using the cost of maintaining an inmate in Headingley, as previously mentioned, that is $1,361.45 per year, if only half or 164 of those offenders had been sentenced for an average of nine months, the total cost to the Provincial Treasury would have been $167,457.12. Furthermore, of the 329 probationers under supervision, as of the end of 1958, 103 were married with an average of three children each. Again, if only one-half of these married probationers had been sentenced to gaol for an average of nine months, there would have been 51 families left without their bread-winner for that period. The current social assistance granted to a mother and three children, as I am informed, aged 4, 6 and 7 years, is approximately $125.00 to $130.00 per month. Hence, if only 25 families, or one-half of the total of 51 families were granted public assistance, the cost to the taxpayers would have been in excess of $40,000.00. Such social assistance cost would have been charged back to the Provincial Government and the municipality.
A further indirect saving to the taxpayer was realized in 1958 in court costs; in restitutions paid by adult probationers who, instead of going to gaol, were put out on probation and paid, in some cases, restitution or court costs into the province and into the pockets of persons who had been robbed or otherwise dealt with illegally. The amount that was paid by way of court costs and restitution was $7,484.00 and $3,907.80 restitution. On the same assumption that one-half of the total number of probationers would have been sent to gaol had there been no adult probation service, then $3,742.00 court costs and $1,953.00 in restitution would not have been paid. Based on the above assumption that one-half of the probationers would have gone to gaol, the gross savings on this calculation to taxpayers in Manitoba in '58, as a result of the adult probation service, could be estimated somewhat as follows: Headingley Gaol costs, if these prisoners had gone there - $167,457.12; social assistance costs - $40,743.90; court costs paid - $3,742.41; restitution paid - $1,953.90; for a total of $213,897.33. The total cost of the probation service for the same period, including an estimate of overhead, was $20,387.58, largely made up of salaries of the probation officers themselves and of stenographers to type their reports and so on. Therefore, we can arrive at an
estimated net saving on the Adult Probation Service in 1958 of rougly $193,509.00, based again on the assumption, and it's only an assumption, but you must have some assumption upon which to found these figures, that one-half of the probationers, one-half of them might have gone to gaol had there been no such service in operation. If one projects these figures into the future, it is anticipated that an estimated net saving of better than $100,000.00 can be anticipated in the next fiscal year by expanding the Adult Probation Service by six to seven probation officers, as we intend to do. Each of these additional probation officers, it is expected, will acquire a case load of some 40 probationers, for a total of some 240. On the assumption that half of these would go to gaol if the services were not available, we may anticipate keeping 120 offenders out of gaol by the hiring of some six to seven probation officers. And based on the same ratio of gross savings as we were talking about a few moments ago in connection with the 1958 figures, the net anticipated saving that we can perhaps make, through the extension of this service, or the gross saving minus the estimated cost of six probation officers, would be approximately $100,000.00.
Now in all of this discussion, Mr. Chairman, we have not talked about the other savings that accrue from a probation system. Who can estimate in dollars and cents the savings to - of a man's life? That is the saving of a man from either going, as my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition would say, "going along the paths of righteousness", or falling into a dishonest life. Who can estimate that saving in dollars and cents? From the economic standpoint we have also to consider the saving that would accrue in salaries, the amounts that are paid by some of these men to separated wives and so on. These men in effect are becoming -- are place back into the stream of life under probation, and probation works as the rates of recidivism show. They are made productive citizens of the community; productive citizens of this country. And I think that while we have been stressing the economic value of a probation service, I think we must never overlook the great moral and humanitarian values that accure from such a service. Therefore appreciate it, Mr. Chairman, that this is perhaps another example where the Leader of the Opposition and I will disagree, but I suggest to you that it is another example of where sometimes you have to spend one dollar to make two. Even more important is that through the extension of this service to other settled areas in the province we will be bringing to those areas the same benefit which is accruing to the citizens of Greater Winnipeg as a result of the service presently in operation here. As I have said before, I give every credit to my predecessors for starting the service some 23 months ago. I do fail to realize, however, why they failed to extend it to the rest of Manitoba, in the light of the studies which we have made, and undoubtedly which were available to them had they sought them.
I should also say that I have asked the Director of Corrections to work in concert with the Department of Education on a system whereby bursaries can be granted to probation workers on staff to continue their training in this new but very important field. Recruiting of personnel in this field is an extremely heavy problem. On assuming office we found that the scale of salaries payable to probation officers is far from realistic. We therefore increased these salaries considerably and we're hopeful that our recruiting program will bring to the service of the province more dedicated men and women to this important field of reform and rehabilitation. I should stress to the Committee, Mr. Chairman, that the program we are now instituting will be at least a two-stage program. The estimates this year call for the addition of only some 6 or 7 probation officers in addition to those presently on staff. We will be sending probation officers to such areas as Flin Flon, Brandon, Dauphin and other large regional centres or centres of judicial districts in the Province of Manitoba.
I think, Mr. Chairman, from this brief summary of what we have been doing in this field and the plans which we have made, members of the House, or members of the Committee will appreciate that we are attempting to catch up with the more advanced provinces, some of the more advanced provinces in Canada at any rate, in this vast field of social reform. There are other topics which are presently under consideration in this area, the recommendations upon which I will be bringing before the House at another time. One important field to which our attention is directed particularly through possible implementation after the coming into force of the new federal-provincial plan, is the provision of Chaplaincy services for the penal and reform institutions in Manitoba. The services are presenlty provided on largely volunteer basis by Roman Catholic and Protestant faiths in the province. We do have information from other
provinces and from the federal field, however, which indicates that a full-time prison Chaplain of each faith deserves the serious consideration of this Committee. I for one believe that the spiritual needs of our inmates are among their greatest. If we are to embark upon a proper program of rehabilitation, we would be sadly remiss if we were to overlook this vital field of spiritual guidance and training. There are many other topics concerned to which study has been given, is being given, and will be given in the department. In this category I would classify such topics as the growing need for a redefinition of judicial districts and County Court district boundaries. A growing need especially in the urban area for more mechanization and expedition of Land Titles Office procedures. A possible redefinition of the jurisdiction of lay Justices of the Peace, and a redefining and perhaps a broadening of the scope of the office of the Director of Corrections in this province. I hope to be able to report on these and other fields at subsequent sessions of the House. Members of the Committee will appreciate, Mr. Chairman, that I have been able to make only a cursory review of the workings of the department over the past few months in the time that is available today. I trust that this discussion will be of benefit as we consider the items in my estimates. It is my hope that I may be able to supply all reasonable additional information that the Committee requests.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I do want to say that I for one have appreciated very much the comments made by the Minister and I want to compliment him on the very comprehensive coverage. With the innovations he mentioned I agree, with some reservations, which I will deal with as we come to the particular items. I would like at this time to congratulate the Law Society on their legal aid program. I think it is worthwhile and I think that so far as public relations are concerned that is an excellent step forward. There's one omission in the statement of the Minister that I was very sorry to note, that there is no program for prevention. It is my very sincere conviction, Mr. Chairman, that prevention is more important than all the curative methods that we use at the moment. I will deal with this in more detail when we come to the proper item in the department.
Now, I have no itention of making a long speech. I will deal with the items as we come to them, but I would like to refer to some of the remarks made by the Minister and, in particular, to the Home for the Girls although he did give the former government a certain amount of credit for what he referred to as the Marymound Home for Girls, which is also referred to at times as the Home of the Good Shepherd. I would, for his information, like to point out that the Home of the Good Shepherd was always ready and willing to take in girls of all denominations. In fact, at one time one of our plans were to extend the facilities further and accept their invitation and their kindness in offering their assistance. The Home of the Good Shepherd was built, as was mentioned, with the financial assistance of this government and we've always had the finest of co-operation from the Home. One of the best I believe on the continent -- well-staffed, and doing excellent work with the girls.
I would have liked to hear a little bit about the remand quarters which were constructed a little better than a year ago. We used to have considerable difficulties with girls that had not been committed and yet were in our custody. In fact, the main source of our difficulties with girls during my time in office was with these girls that had not been committed. Our jurisdiction over them was not the same as the jurisdiction over the girls that were committed. We put up these remand quarters and I would like to hear from the Minister in due course whether they're working out to expectations and whether they have facilitated the handling of that particular branch of his department.
I do not intend, Mr. Chairman, to be of anything else but of help to the Minister. I'm fully appreciative of the difficulties that he has encountered and I know that those difficulties are going to be heavy until the recommendation of the Fauteux Report have been implemented. The implementation of the recommendations of that particular commission will go a long way to ease the present burden insofar as adult inmates are concerned, but it not will only ease that burden but give the department and the Minister an opportunity to do considerably more work with our youth, where I think that the emphasis should be placed. I have no objection whatsoever to the extension of the probation services and other services mentioned by the Minister. In fact, had we remained in office we'd have followed along the same lines. At the same time I've always mentioned, and I do again, that insofar as probationary services are concerned, I would tread very lightly in that direction.
The Minister has pointed out that there were 319 prisoners on probation, in 1958 I believe it was, or for that matter it doesn't make any difference to when it was, but to me that points to something that we're inclined to overlook. It points out to me that there is a continuous increase in the number of crimes committed in the province. We not only have an increase in the number of crimes committed in the province. We not only have an increase in our gaol population, we are overcrowded and we're not the only province that is overcrowded. There isn't a province in the Dominion of Canada or anywhere as far as I could gather in the civilized world where there isn't overcrowding. But the continual increase in crime -- there must be some reason for it. I've often wondered whether the leniency that we exercise isnt' partially, not I don't say wholly, but isn't partially to blame for the increase in crime. I'm in complete agreement with probation provided it's handled very carefully. Now, are we really saving the money that the Attorney-General has mentioned? Are we encouraging crime? If we are, then we're certainly not saving any money nor any of the other things that he has mentioned. Now, this isn't a conviction that I have, it's a thought only and I've given it a lot of serious consideration and, frankly, I haven't come to a decision myself. But I have noted that wherever probationary services have been brought in, especially in the Province of Ontario, there was a tendency for an increase in crime. Now I think, Mr. Chairman, that it's only human
for any person who is inclined towards committing an offence, that he will do so sooner if he feels he will not be punished; that there's the possibility of him going Scot-free. I think it's only human nature. Now whether the probationary services do in any way add to addition in crime, I do not know, but I've often wondered whether they do not. I know that the Minister's hands are tied in long range plans until we know what the Federal Government is going to do but he mentioned the work camps or correctional camps, I think he called them. I've often wondered whether a different type of a correctional camp wouldn't be of considerable benefit to the government as well as to the inmates themselves, and that is a farm where the inmates could work with our agricultural department at the University of Manitoba in research, plant research and so forth, where there is a lot of physical man-labour involved, such as the planting of plantations and so forth and so on; whether you couldn't get a co-ordination there that would be of benefit both to the inmates and to the University.
On the question of probation, a figure of 319 I think it was, I don't entirely agree with that figure because I do believe that quite a number of those have been put on probation would have formerly been given suspended sentences and the saving wouldn't have been there. Of course, there is another way of looking at this. The suspended sentence would not of necessity have meant that the prisoner would not repeat committing an offence, but nor is there any assurance that that same prisoner put on probation would not commit it.
Now, insofar as the woman offenders are concerned, I do hope -- I do hope that it will not be long before the Federal Government provides an institution for them. I know that there are objections to it -- some very serious one -- but I do not think that with the number of women and the crimes for which they are committed can be satisfactorily treated in the provincial institution. The same applies to those inmates which give the governments the most trouble, and that is sex deviates, drug addicts, psychotics, psychopaths and so forth. I think that separate institutions should be built for them, and the sooner this is done the better. We can not expect the province to do it because the number of inmates of that type is small and I don't think that the expense would warrant it and I don't think that we could give them the type of treatment that they require. But I do think that an institution - a central federal institution with proper treatment facilities for this type of offender would save a great deal of worry, trouble and money both to the Provincial and the Federal Governments because, as the Minister may have already discovered, that most of his troubles in gaols stems from this type of offender. They are very hard to segregate when you have them under the same roof or adjacent roofs and the only answer to that, of course, is separate institutions.
As to the staff of the various branches of this department, I can whole-heartedly agree with the Minister that we are fortunate in having some of the best men and women in the province in this department. Most of them, if not all of them, are dedicated to their work and have been working under trying circumstances and I think will continue to work under trying circumstances for some time to come. They are loyal, absolutely given to their work and in certain branches where compassion is necessary, they are compassionate.
I want to say again, Mr. Chairman, that it is my sincere opinion that the Attorney-General has done a good job so far. He will discover that his work will not be completed no matter how long he occupies that particular position. We are going through a stage of transition. Your new penal programs are really new. They will have to be revamped and remade and changed from time to time as they prove themselves or do not prove themselves. I do not think that in this field we'll see the day, or any member in this House will see the day, when we'll have it anywhere near as perfect as we'd like to see it. I know that he has a hard road ahead of him. He has my every sympathy. And as I mentioned previously, if I can be of any assistance to him, I certainly will be. If my past experience can be of any help, he's welcome to it. I do not feel that the duties of the opposition are merely to criticize and point out the weaknesses of the government. I think that we also have the duty to assist the government whenever we see an opportunity to do so.
MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, we on this side of the House have traditionally taken the view that the treatment in incarceration of prisoners which has been folllowed in Canada has not been doing the job and, therefore, it is not surprising that what I say today will, to a considerable extent, be in support of the proposed changes which the Honourable the Attorney-General has informed us this afternoon.
The Honourable Member for Ethelbert began by saying that if they had still been in office they would have had in all likelihood done what the Honourable the Attorney-General says is to be done. They would have hired six or seven new probation officers and I was glad to hear that, and then I was somewhat puzzled when I heard him question whether the continually increasing number of crimes is due to the fact that we are being too lenient, because if we are being too lenient then obviously what we need is more gaol sentences, longer gaol sentences, more prisons, larger facilities and, I would think, less probation officers. Now we have said continuously and I'm not going to say for a moment that we are alone in this, that we were or we are alone in this, that this just isn't working. The Saturday Night had an editorial February 14th of this year in which they said in part: "According to a recent United Nations report using a fairly simple form of enlightening rating, Canada penal system ranks fiftieth in the world", which puts us somewhere among the Middle East countries and the dictatorships of South American in our treatment of offenders. We agree with that and we are glad to see that because of new interest on the part of the public and the part of governments, both federal and provincial, that we are making a new start. I cannot agree for a moment that we are being too lenient. The Honourable Member for Ethelbert says he doesn't know if this is the case, he just wonders. Well, it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that if one looks at the experience of a country like Great Britain where they have followed a system of probation for many years, one can get an actual picture of what happens. In the last years for which I was able to get figures in England and Wales with a population of 43 million they had less than 35,000 people in prison, whereas in Canada in the same year with a population of 14 million, we had over 98,000 people in our gaols and prisons, and to my mind, this is obvious proof of the fact that our system isn't working. I'm not saying that one can transpose the figures in Great Britain to Canada -- obviously the social and economic conditions are different, but when you consider that when they began their probation system in Great Britain almost 50 years ago they had close to 150,000 people in their penal institutions, we can see the progress which can be made in this field. And I certainly agree with the Honourable the Attorney-General when he proposes that this be extended, and certainly there is no reason -- there should never have been any reason why probation services should have been, even on a temporary basis, confined to the Greater Winnipeg area.
Now I can sympathize and agree to a considerable extent with the Honourable Attorney-General when he suggests that major changes in our institutions will have to wait for the further discussions between the Federal and Provincial Governments. Naturally one would not expect any government, any Provincial Government, to begin major construction programs when, as the Honourable Attorney-General pointed out, probably half the people who are now taken care of in provincial institutions will be looked after in the federal institutions if the provisions of the Fauteux Report are adopted. At the same time I think that this Provincial Government ought to have a good hard look at the system which they use in Great Britain - the Borstal system, in which young offenders are segregated and in which concentrated effort is made to rehabilitate these young offenders. Punishment -- and here again I must disagree with the Honourable Member for Ethelbert -- punishment, I suppose one could make a case for punishment and severe punishment of people who are second and third offenders. I had the privilege of listening to one of Canada's top psychiatrists give a series of lectures here last winter and, unfortunately they didn't print the text of his addresses but as I remember it, he pointed out that people who were committed to penal institutions for a second time usually went to the extent, I think, of 65% went in for a third time; and people who went in for a third time, went in for a fourth time to an even higher extent than that. But certainly there can be no question that all the experience in countries which have tried segregation of first offenders, there can be no question that in countries like Great Britain and in the United States, that an entirely different type of institution than we have had in Canada has worked and worked very well. And I for one, and I'm sure everyone in our group welcomes the proposal that we begin an entirely different type of institution in the type suggested by the Attorney-General in the farm type.
I do have some questions, Mr. Chairman, which I think still need to be considered. I'm glad that we're not going to keep on adding additions to Headingley; I'm glad that alternative forms of organization will be used. I'm not very happy with the future prospects for institutions such as we still have at Brandon and at Dauphin and at The Pas. I haven't got it with me today
because I must admit I was -- in the light of what we've had the last few days, I wasn't certain we would get to this item this afternoon, but last week there was a report in the Free Press -- several people who got into trouble in Brandon were before, I think, the magistrate in Brandon and they predicted that there would be more trouble in Brandon in the future because Brandon is still overcrowded, and even if that can be -- and I'm sure that can be handled in terms of numbers as we develop alternative plans, but the physical facilities of Brandon, and I presume of Dauphin and The Pas similarly, simply do not provide for any real system -- not of punishment because that they have, but of working with the prisoners. There are no facilities, I am given to understand, for recreation facilities or anything else in those two. Headingley has done a good deal in the field of recreation facilities and for this we are very happy. I wonder if the Minister when we get to the item would tell us what facilities there are for recreation at Headingley in the winter time, because a good deal that is done in the summer time, and with which I agree, sports and so on, is of course very difficult if not impossible during the winter in Headingley, unless they are planning or have already built a gymnasium and facilities of that type. And certainly in the other institutions they're impossible.
I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, and here again I'm not suggesting that we build very elaborate facilities, but I would like to know what facilities there are at Headingley for vocational training. I'm told, for example, and again I realize, and this is not a criticism, that the Minister may want to go slow because of the proposed changes and I for one think they can't come too soon, but I'm told that at the Regina gaol they have six fully qualified trade instructors who continuously carry on classes throughout the year in such fields as tailoring, shoe repair, shoe-making, radio repair and electronics, motor mechanics, carpentry and farm mechanics. Now if this can be done in Regina, I'm sure that it can be done at Headingley.
The reports which have been made in the past, Mr. Chairman, and I'm not going to go into them in detail, but the Kyle Commission, the Commission which was headed by Mr. Hunter, went to a great degree into the question of the need for a proper classification system with competent trained help including social workers, educators and psychologists. As a matter of fact, here is what the Hunter -- the committee headed by Mr. Hunter said, and I quote, "That the duties of the psychiatrists should include consultation with probation officers and staff of correctional institutions on the diagnosis and disposition of cases, psychotherapy in assisting and classifying all offenders committed to provincial institutions; that the psychologist by responsible for administering intelligence, vocational, aptitude and other psychological tests and that he work udner the direction of the psychiatrist".
Now I am wondering, Mr. Chairman, whether anything along this line is being planned. I understand that the department now has a psychiatrist. I presume that part of his time is spent in the various gaols. I would like to know how much time he spends in each institution. Does he visit Brandon at all? Does he visit The Pas at all? How much time does he spend at Headingley? What inmates does he see? Who refers them to the psychiatrist? In other words, are there any trained social workers at Headingley or other people who are trained so that people who need assistance from the psychiatrist can be sent to the psychiatrist. A suggestion which was made some time ago was that not only should there be vocational training at the insitutions such as Headingley but that there actually be educational facilities for -- in academic subjects. A large percentage of the people who get into trouble and who are sent to institutions are people who have not the education which would give them an easy entree into adequate job opportunities, and it was suggested by Dr. Topping in a series of articles he wrote in The Tribune in 1957 that a couple of teachers be assigned to Headingley.
MR. CHAIRMAN: ...
MR. ORLIKOW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to be able to continue tomorrow for a few minutes when we begin again.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have adopted certain resolutions; have asked me to report the same; and ask leave to sit again.
DR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, that the report of the Committee be received.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.]
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that this House do now adjourn and stand adjourned until tomorrow at 2:30.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2:30 the following afternoon.]
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