| 601 | 602 | 603 | 604 | 605 | 606 | 607 | 608 | 609 | 610 |
| 611 | 612 | 613 | 614 | 615 | 616 | 617 | 618 | 619 | 620 |
| 621 | 622 | 623 | 624 | 625 | 626 | 627 | 628 | 629 | 630 |
| 631 |
| Page | ||
| Committee of Whole House, Supply | ||
| Agriculture and Conservation ....... | 601 | |
| Dairy Branch ......................... | 608 | |
| Extension Services Branch ..... | 611 | |
| Soils and Crops Branch ......... | 621 | |
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 3. Agriculture, Livestock, we're on 4.
MR. PAULLEY: I believe the Honourable Member for Fisher had asked a couple of questions of the Minister in respect to P.F.A.A. and the fact of a--if a chap happens to do a small amount of summer fallowing on land that he can't use, he may not qualify for the $4.00 per acre.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member was entirely right. There's no way that I know of whereby he can qualify under these circumstances under the Federal Act.
MR. PAULLEY: ...representation now that the matter has been brought to his attention. I think possibly, Mr. Chairman, that is one of those items that the peculiar situation hasn't arisen and now that it's been brought to the attention of the Minister, I wonder whether or not he intends to take any action in order to have the matter remedied.
MR. WILLIS: I have discussed it with the Minister. It was discussed, I know, with the previous Government, with regard to the same matter, and so far I think in neither case were we able to make any progress, although I think both Governments did what they could.
MR. STAN ROBERTS (La Verendrye): Mr. Chairman, on the No. 4, the Further Improvement Associations, we've heard a great deal from the Honourable Minister on the subject of Heinz cattle and it would seem to me that this item, item No. 4, on dealing with Herd Improvement Associations, which are, I believe, mainly to do with artificial breeding of cattle and products of that nature, that this would be the logical place to show an increase in assistance if we intend to do away with this great abundance of Heinz cattle that exists throughout Manitoba. I think it's probably the most economical, the most inexpensive and the most effective place where we could spend some money to advantage that there's no field in livestock industry where we can obtain quicker results over a wider sphere than we can in the field of artificial breeding. And I think that the few stations that we have operating in Manitoba at the present time, such as the Dairy Cattle, Holstein, Redboine and so forth, breeding stations in the south-east have taken tremendous forward steps in the improvement of the breed of the cattle of the dairy cattle in that area. I had the good fortune a few years back of examining at first hand the method that is used in Denmark of artificial breeding of the method of which the government of that country has developed a truly fantastic method and a wide coverage of the improvement of the beef and dairy breeds in those countries is tested, performance tested, its sisters are performances tested, its parents are performance tested, either for performance as to its beef qualities, in the case of beef animals, or its performance on milk and butter fat in the terms of its dairy quality. And the result, as the test has been going on there for a number of years, the results are truly tremendous. There's no such a thing in the country of that nature of Heinz cattle. The cattle throughout these countries and particularly Denmark because it's the most developed that I know of in that respect, show a tremendous uniformity, they show a rapid rate of gain compared to our average, they show a tremendous milk production compared to our average, and throughout the whole of the country they, agricultural people, the farmers are showing great strides forward in their productivity because of this program carried on by the government through the Herd Improvement Association. And I think that while these things are rightly carried on by the people interested in the breeds concerned, in order that they may progress at the rate that we want them to progress, in order that bulls used in these artificial breeding stations should be the very, very best of bulls, then these types of programs require government assistance, government promotion, because of the need of testing the animals used in the station. Not just of the animal itself, but of all its parents. And the absolute need that because a bull in one of these stations, whether it's a beef bull or a dairy bull, because they should be -- because they're used to such a tremendous extent that one animal can sire many hundreds of calves even after they are dead. I feel that this type of program should be one spot where the government should, obviously in our agricultural estimates we are spending more money than we have in years past, that if we're going to increase money in any departments, I think that this is one department where that it would certainly pay off the biggest results to the benefit of the people, to farmers of the province. And particularly in view of the remarks of the Minister, where he criticizes the herds in Manitoba as having too many Heinz cattle involved in them. I think that this is one place where the government could enter into and become a partner to the Herd Improvement Association so that the cattle, the bulls used at these stations will be of the very, very best quality with known parentage, with known performance ability and that I think that this is the field where we could be giving more considera-
tion. I think that we can spend as much money as we like in beef cattle field men. We can spend as much money as we like in dairy cattle field men. We can spend as much money as we like in the Ag. Rep. service and so forth and still not got--end up with the best cattle in the province. But if we do spend enough money in performance testing bulls and putting bulls into the right type of stations, then we will end up with a great deal less money and a great deal more surety that we'll end up with the type of cattle we want in Manitoba.
MR. WILLIS: ...answer that at this time. We have done a great deal towards the policy which the Honourable Member advocates. You'll see in the estimates $16,400.00 but most of our grants come from the Horned Cattle Purchase Fund and for the very purpose you're talking about do we have these grants. To the Stonewall Club, these are all artificial breeding clubs, Stonewall Club - $4,058.00, St. Claude Club - $174.00, the Rat River Limited - $1,344.00, the Redboine - $1,816.00, Stanley and Rhineland - $1,552.00, Hanover - $2,036.00, Brian Memorial - $2,286.00, Dauphin - $400.00, Neepawa - $646.00 and the Dairy Cattle Breeders Association of Manitoba - $255.00, all in that policy.
MR. WAGNER: If I can pursue that Veterinary Service question a little bit further. What is the government doing about improving the veterinary service or is it under consideration of something to be done? And if I may, Mr. Chairman, make a suggestion, if the government would take my suggestion. If I can say I will place a veterinarian in the middle of Interlake area, and that would so happen it would be in the middle of Fisher constituency. And then at that, now, I'm not speaking as a C.C.F. political member, I'm speaking now as a member representing the people of my constituency, naturally, and trying to do my best to represent the people of Manitoba. I don't intend to play politics once I'm elected. I'm playing politics ... [Interjection] I play politics on the hot things, but once I'm here, I intend to be sincere and carry the load as much as possible ... [Interjection]
A MEMBER: Everybody is with you.
MR. WAGNER: Good, except of that, yes. I would suggest, Sir, if you would be kind enough to give consideration to that if a vet would be placed in the middle of the constituency. Now that same vet could serve Lake Manitoba, that's St. George constituency, that's incidentally Liberal, and then it could serve the Gimli constituency, and that incidentally is the Conservative member. And Fisher, that's the C.C.F. member, and maybe if we three get together possibly we can get a vet.
MR. WILLIS: I thought it was the cattle that were to be served.
MR. WAGNER: Well, that's what I meant. But that vet, with proper assistance, he could serve the three constituencies. And if this Government as they used to say out in the hustings that we are out to help the people. There's their one way to help these people out in that Interlake area; help those farmers that they don't have to lose money by losing cattle, sheep and hogs and whatever you've got. And this is one thing that the Minister of Agriculture can prove that the Liberals wouldn't be able to say, "We had it in the past, we had this policy." This would be a new policy which the Conservatives would come out with.
MR. CAMPBELL: I was going to ask about the connection with the veterinary service districts. Is an attempt made with the veterinary students who are on scholarships to commit them to practising in rural Manitoba?
MR. WILLIS: Yes, where they receive assistance, yes. If I might say a word in regard to my friend from Fisher Branch, I don't want to make him sadder than he is, but I know in his constituency, part of it is organized, part of it is unorganized. The present policy covers only organized territory. So that you are in trouble there. But what you'd better do -- you may have ideas, you better come in and see me and we'll talk them over. I don't want to see your cattle die but I don't know how difficult the policy is. I can make you no promises in regard to it but you have a problem and let's see whether anything can be done about it.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I believe the Honourable Minister is right. I believe my colleague has got a problem. Otherwise he wouldn't have been discussing it.
MR. WILLIS: That's true for sure.
MR. PAULLEY: And whether the proper solution is just simply coming in to see the Minister or not, I have some doubt. Because considering these estimates and the replies to questions given this afternoon by the Minister, it appears to me that out of the $16,400.00 that there's only provision of $1,000.00 if I followed the Minister correctly insofar as veterinary
service districts is concerned, because if I recall correctly, he said that there was only one district that was qualifying at the present time. Now, I'm not too conversant with the situation in regard to veterinaries throughout the province. It does appear to me from reading and hearing the debate on this particular item, that there doesn't seem to be sufficient veterinaries to do a good job insofar as livestock is concerned in the Province of Manitoba. Now, my colleague mentioned in his remarks a moment or so ago, asked the question "If this is the case, what, if anything is being done in order to increase the supply of veterinaries in the Province of Manitoba?" Possibly it was a case where maybe there should be a little further co-operation or a little more co-operation between the Minister of Education and the Minister of Agriculture. But again, Mr. Chairman, if the replies given this afternoon by the Honourable Minister in respect of veterinaries who are under this scheme of $1,000.00 from the Provincial Government and $1,000.00 from the municipalities, it would appear that there's only provision in the estimates for one which doesn't appear to be adequate for a province the size of Manitoba.
MR. WAGNER: If the Honourable Minister wouldn't mind, he used the word 'unorganized territory.' It's 'disorganized'.
MR. WILLIS: Thank you.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, how many scholarship students have we in veterinary science now?
MR. WILLIS: I haven't got that with me but I will let you know.
MR. CAMPBELL: It seems to me that that is the best hope of getting the veterinary service that is needed although the fact, I think, is as the Minister has stated that it's pretty competitive business these times. The veterinarians are doing well in larger centres and they don't freely go out to the smaller ones. And if they stay in the larger ones, then some of the districts such as my honourable friend's are probably a long distance away from them. [Interjection] ...That's right and I'm afraid it still obtains to some extent too. But getting back to herd improvement associations as well -- I don't want to close off discussion on the other, I presume we can continue to discuss it as well -- but reverting to herd improvement associations, there is no increase in this item as far as can be seen. And surely those artificial insemination clubs are growing and expanding, are they not?
MR. WILLIS: It all comes out another grant, that's the difference.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, not all, because...
MR. WILLIS: No, most of it.
MR. CAMPBELL: Because very little. What is spent out of the horned cattle fund on, in total? You gave us several figures. How much does that total?
MR. WILLIS: The total there, it's a $36,487.00 total, about $17,000.00 roughly is spent on artificial semination out of horned cattle...
MR. CAMPBELL: $17,000.00 out of the horned cattle.
MR. WILLIS: That's right.
MR. CAMPBELL: And approximately $15,000.00 out of this one.
MR. WILLIS: ...yes, that's probably true.
MR. CAMPBELL: Would the Minister have the figures there? We have the figures that shows how much was spent on this...last year, just the exactly the same as this year. But would he have the figures on how much was spent from the Horned Cattle Fund? My point is that in line with what the Honourable Member for La Verendrye was saying -- I thought the service was growing very rapidly.
MR. E. GUTTORMSON: In answer to a previous question, the Minister said that veterinary students on bursaries were permitted to spend a certain amount of time in a country spot - what is the period of time they are permitted to spend in that particular area?
MR. WILLIS: I think it is three years, within the province not in any particular area.
MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on the Prairie Improvement Association, the Minister gave us the list of contributions from the Horned Cattle Fund, but these are largely to dairy cattle associations, aren't they?
MR. WILLIS: They are both, but largely dairy.
MR. ROBERTS: Largely dairy. Does this government not intend to encourage the use of artificial breeding for beef cattle in Manitoba?
MR. WILLIS: It is being used now considerably and there isn't the same call for it that there is for the others. But as far as we are concerned, we have not objected to it. No. And we pay $2.00 per cow as you probably know, on them all and those are the fees which are there. So you can see the number that have been bred, both dairy cattle and beef cattle, is very considerable.
MR. ROBERTS: ...beef cattle, ...on the dairy cattle through these natural channels, through these private breeders and so forth, we have quite considerable records as to the performance of the parents of the bull and the sisters and so forth of the bull, but on the beef cattle we haven't got the performance testing records the same way. My point is this, that we should be encouraging through this same herd improvement association grant, we should be encouraging the performance testing of bulls, not just casually but wholeheartedly so that when we do have bulls that perform as we want them to perform, then there will be the same demand, I'm sure, for the use of these performance tested bulls for artificial breeding that there is at the present time for dairy cattle breeding.
MR. J. P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, in further pursuing this question about the veterinaries, on Friday I made a plea that we should have an extra one in Emerson constituency. My situation, or my conditions are just about the same as those of the honourable member for Fisher Branch, with one exception that we have a veterinary at the extreme western end of Emerson, but a hundred miles further east we haven't got a veterinary. I understood the Minister to say that in disorganized, there is no policy in disorganized areas. Would the Minister be kind enough to tell us how we could go about it so that we could obtain a veterinary there? Is it at all possible or completely hopeless?
MR. WILLIS: There would have to be a new policy. We have had no policy in the last...for a very, very long time when, shall we say that your party was in so long? There was no policy in regard to unorganized and these isn't yet as far as that's concerned. And all you can do now is to go to the closest vet, wherever he is, like other people do, that's the best you can do. And I know that at times in various parts of the province, they've had to go fifty miles to get a vet, because there is a terrific shortage.
MR. TANCHAK: Does the government contemplate in changing or implementing a policy for disorganized or not?
MR. WILLIS: We will certainly have a look at it. We have nothing ready for this Session.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, since the one portion of the public expenditures here are paid out of the Horned Cattle Fund, probably this would be the proper place to ask the Minister for a report on the Horned Cattle Fund in general. What are the other expenditures and what are their totals?
MR. WILLIS: The total disbursements are: Grants $36,487.00, Salaries $6,960.00, Sundry Expenses $137.00, Office Expenses $1,782.00, Advisory Board Expenses $407.00, Portable Livestock Scale $602.00, Rental and Transportation of Chairs - big item - $12.50. That's the total, and the total disbursements are $46,390.78.
MR. CAMPBELL: Would it be a correct deduction from that to say that the number of -- no, that wouldn't be -- that wouldn't give us the number of cattle that were penalized for having horns. What is the number, or to put it in the proper way, what is the amount collected in the year under review?
MR. WILLIS: $61,104.00 taken in.
MR. CAMPBELL: Does the Honourable, the Minister have the balance that's in the fund at the moment then?
MR. WILLIS: Balance March 31st, $81,669.00.
MR. CAMPBELL: Still building up.
MR. WILLIS: Right.
MR. CAMPBELL: Could the Minister break down the grants of $36,000.00? What are the other...?
MR. WILLIS: Well, I gave you about 9/10ths of it.
MR. CAMPBELL: ... I thought not 9/10ths because there were only $16,000.00, weren't there?
MR. WILLIS: I gave you those items and aside from those, here is the balance: Cattle Breeders' Association of Manitoba, $732.00--no, I gave you that. Manitoba Stock Growers'
Association $1,000.00, Livestock Protection Society $7,550.00 and then the University of Manitoba $9,000.00, and then another one - the University of Manitoba $2,500.00. One was the investigation in regard to 'dwarfism', the other was 'retrace element of deficiencies in forages' for $2,500.00. That makes up your total of $36,487.00.
MR. CAMPBELL: What is the amount for Livestock Protection Association, is that the term?
MR. WILLIS: $1,000.00 Manitoba Stockbreeders' Associaton.
MR. CAMPBELL: No, the Livestock Protection item.
MR. WILLIS: Oh, $7,550.00.
MR. CAMPBELL: Exactly what work is being done under that, Mr. Chairman?
MR. WILLIS: I haven't got the breakdown.
MR. ROBERTS: ...there is a grant of $1,000.00 to the Stockgrowers' Association, is there any reason why the Stockgrowers' Association receives a grant whereas other agricultural associations or unions don't receive any grant from the Horned Cattle Fund?
MR. WILLIS: Well, this is a matter that has been in for some time and I know it is a matter of controversy as they are concerned, but they carry on in general livestock promotion within the Province of Manitoba and the grant was given previously, and this time was continued. I think we had two applications, one to discontinue it entirely and the other to make it bigger, and we stayed where we were for the time being. And I know the controversy in regard to it and it's not an easy matter to handle.
MR. CAMPBELL: That could be called a 'middle of the road' policy, I'm sure. Mr. Chairman, the reason I was asking about the Livestock Protection is that there is a great deal of attention being paid these times to the question -- and I think rightly so too -- regarding humane slaughter of animals in the abattoirs. I presume that that would arise under the item that is standing, the item before this, rather than now, but on the other hand, under this Livestock Protection, I still haven't got the last word -- Livestock Protection Association, is it?
MR. WILLIS: Livestock Protection Society.
MR. CAMPBELL: Society. My remembrance is, though I haven't reviewed its work for a long time - my remembrance is that this is the society, and there is one active individual perhaps in addition to the board, I'm not sure, that has the responsibility for checking the cars and trucks that arrive at the yards and at the abbatoirs. I was just going to say that with all the interest that's been paid lately to the question of humane slaughter of animals, I really think that perhaps the inhumanity that has existed in the livestock industry has probably been greater at the transportation level than it has at the slaughter level, because at least at the slaughter level it doesn't last very long. But so far as the transportation is concerned, sometimes it's a pretty difficult situation and I was wondering just how thoroughly that work is carried on and if the Minister could give us a report on the progress that's being made in the human slaughter of animals at abattoirs, sort of as an allied question. I would be very glad to go into both. And related, I think, directly to this question of the Livestock Protection Society is the feature of horned cattle. It's quite amazing I think, after all the years of penalizing the shippers of cattle, to think that there's still 40,000 cattle coming to market with horns on and being penalized. And I know something of the work that's been going on to try and publicize the dehorning of cattle for a great many years, and still these numbers come to market. So I think that Horned Cattle Fund itself, and the Livestock Protection Society and this question of the humane slaughter are all tied up to some extent. Could the Minister report on all of them?
MR. WILLIS: We have a man at St. Boniface there to watch over this sort of thing, and see if there is human slaughter, as far as we are concerned, and also as far as the horns are concerned. I assume that there - in additon to that there may be, must be some expenses in it; he wouldn't be paid that amount of money, I don't think, $7,550.00. But it's in connection with his work, as I understand it, that this amount is expended out of the Horned Cattle Fund, where logically it should come from, because that's where the money comes from.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman. The humane slaughter, I understand the Agricultural Committee in Ottawa was considering it for a very long time, and now they have a report before Parliament, so I don't - so that may become a Federal law. Am I correct?
A MEMBER: Oh yes, ... [Interjection - You'd have to talk to... ]
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister sure that the man whom the Department
employs over at the -- from the Horned Cattle Fund, also checks on methods of slaughter in the abbatoirs?
MR. WILLIS: That's my information, and I don't know his, for sure, his name, but I think that it would probably help a little if I told you he goes by the name of "Scotty" all the time.
MR. CAMPBELL: My guess is that my informant, the Minister's informant is the gentleman just behind him and to his right. I gather...
MR. WILLIS: This time you're right.
MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah, I'm right right along. And is the, is he checking also in the abattoirs?
MR. H. P. SHEWMAN (Morris): This gentleman, as I understand the picture, was appointed by the previous government to check all trucks and the handling of livestock that comes into the Yard. And he spends two days a week checking the plants. The rest of the time is spent in the Yard. And he is checking for the humane purpose of seeing that the cattle are not abused while they're being in transit, and also while they are being handled at the Yards and the plants.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4 passed. Item 5: Bang's Disease and Sire Purchase Policies.
MR. GUTTORMSON: I note that there's an increase in the monies voted, $54,000.00. What is this money going towards?
MR. WILLIS: It's a Bang's eradication program, which will gradually cover the whole province on exactly the same basis as the previous campaign for the elimination of tuberculosis. Bang's disease is being eliminated just the same way.
MR. GUTTORMSON: How many municipalities in Manitoba haven't put into effect the Bang's program?
MR. WILLIS: I haven't got the breakdown of it here, but I would think that about two-thirds of them have not, but they're coming in fast now.
MR. PAULLEY: Next, with the Bang's disease program, I think it ties in with the question of verterinaries again. It is my understanding that the innoculations for Bang's disease at the present time must be done by a veterinary. And if that is the case, and if there is such a shortage of vets, how does the government hope to make very much progress in this? Now I understand that in other jurisdictions there has been some consideration given to training personnel rather than veterinaries who are capable of doing the necessary work in respect to inoculations for Bang's disease. Now I wonder whether or not the Minister or the administration has given any consideration. I understand that the drugs used in this particular program are likely to be very injurious to human beings, but I do understand again that in some jurisdiction that there are trained personnel who perform this work, and I hasten to add too, Mr. Chairman, that it's my understanding that the personnel that does the work are scrutinized very, very closely as to character and the likes of that before being permitted to conduct this work. But if it is a case of a shortage of veterinaries, I am wondering how much progress the Government will be able to make in this particular program.
MR. WILLIS: This is done by the Federal Government, and the requests go to the Federal Government in regard to the brucellosis control areas. And now we have 39 municipalities have been so declared - 39 municipalities. And ten municipalities are now under test. The Federal Health of Animals division undertakes all the tests and defray of the costs incidental to the tests. Compensation is paid on all cattle which react to the blood test. Compensation payments are based on the quality, age and weight of the animals, with maximum compensation for purebred cattle at $140.00 per head, and for grade cattle at $70.00 per head. All cattle reacting to the test must be shipped to, and slaughtered, at an inspected slaughtering plant. If the carcass of the reactor animal for any reason is condemned, the owner in addition to the compensation, will receive from the government an amount equal to that which he would have received from the packing plant had the carcass not been condemned. That, in general, is the picture as far as we are concerned.
MR. PAULLEY: Are all these tests conducted by veterinaries?
MR. WILLIS: Yes, I understand so.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Is the amount voted - the increase in the amount voted, is that taken up by the increase in compensation?
MR. WILLIS: Yes, increased areas, to gradually cover the province.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Is the government considering any program whereby they are going to take the initiative to - in unorganized territory? I know in one part of my constituency, in the Fisher district, the people are anxious to get into this Bang's program, and at that time I had to inform them that they had to take the initiative to get the program started. Have you considered any program whereas the government would take the initiative instead of the residents themselves?
MR. WILLIS: I think the Agricultural representatives do a great deal in that regard, and if I understand it correctly, that normally they get municipalities in first and then they move from there to the unorganized territories, and clean them up as well. You'll see right away, it would be a very bad thing though if the unorganized territories remained outside, and if they were not cleaned up, because it might come back into the organized territories again, and give them considerable trouble. Do you know in your territory, are you cleared as far as T.B. is concerned? I assume you are.
MR. GUTTORMSON: I wouldn't like to say for sure. I think we are.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the question that the Honourable Leader of the C.C.F. was asking is an important one, and an interesting one, I think, too, because while I believe it's true that you could not persuade the Federal Government, who really have control of this program, to allow any but registered veterinarians to do the testing in connection with a program - this overall program of theirs, yet I'm sure it still is the fact that it does not need to be a veterinarian who does the vaccination of calves, and I would think that livestock owners, if they - long before the other program comes along - would be very wise to vaccinate the calves at the proper time, because nobody, particularly if they have purebred cattle, or really good cattle, wants to see them disposed of at the compensation that's paid under a scheme of this kind, and, so if they will organize themselves, and I suggest that it's not difficult for them to organize themselves, into a community, make a field day out of it, because usually in the ranch country at least, the, or the range country, the calves are born fairly uniform time, and if they will arrange a sort of a field day in the community at the community at the time the calves, and they have a few months to go, I think it's from four to eight months, if they'll arrange a program when they can catch the most of them and have them - they don't have to have them rounded up all to one place, but have each individual farmer have them gathered up and corraled, then I'm sure that even though they're a long way away from a veterinarian, they can make a deal with one of the veterinarians to go there because he can do a great many of them in one day. But in the meantime, if there is no veterinarian available, I believe they can get the vaccine and they can, they can vaccinate them themselves... [Interjection] No, they're not, they are not prevented. I am sure that they would not be, their test would not be accepted by the federal authorities, but on the other hand I am quite sure that nothing has been put into any Act that prevents a farmer from vaccinating his own animals. And it is not difficult to do. I would, I believe that the Provincial Government supplies the vaccine for cases of that kind, does it? [Interjection - That's right. ] And is it the fact that in the federal program that they require a blood test of the whole herd? [Interjection - Yes - that's right. ] On a...to determine their plan.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item B.
MR. CAMPBELL: No, there's the other side of this yet. There's the Sire Purchase Policies yet.
MR. ROBERTS: Sire Purchase policies. I presume that - did you say, Mr. Minister, Honourable Minister, that the whole of the increase was going to the Bang's disease policy? Is there any change in the Sire Purchase Policy?
MR. WILLIS: No. There's a big expenditure for the Sire Policy.
MR. ROBERTS: Would you outline it to us, please?
MR. WILLIS: Under the Sire Policy, of course, we pay 20% of the purchase price, not to exceed $80.00, on any one bill. And this past year we bought 1,094 bulls for a total amount of $73,474.00.
MR. ROBERTS: Is it the only Sire Purchase Policy?
MR. WILLIS: No, we have bull-rental clubs, and also have ram-rental clubs, where sires are purchased as well.
MR. ROBERTS: Are they purchased on the same 20% plan?
MR. WILLIS: There's a slight -- there's a difference here. I'll read it to you. On the boar basis, purebred boars of approved bacon type are purchased by the Department and leased to clubs with a membership of six or more hog producers owning 20 or more breeding sows at an annual rental of $8.00. The boar is retained in service as long as he proves satisfactory, remains with the club for one or two years, and is then transferred to another and subsequent clubs. When the animal for any reason has outlived his usefulness, he is fitted for market by the Club and sold on the market. The salvage price is credited to the original purchase price of the animal. The Federal Department of Agriculture contributes financially to this program by assuming 25% of the purchase price of boars, and 50% of transportation costs in moving boars from club to club. During recent years the policy earnings have not met the outlay occasioned through the purchase of the boars, and transportation costs incurred in moving the boars from club to club. The salvage price of stags is low, while the purchase price of purebred boars has continued at a relatively high level. In the last fiscal year 125 boar-rental clubs were in operation.
MR. ROBERTS: Has there been an increase in this policy, or is this the identical policy from other years? [Interjection - No change.] No change. A person who purchases a bull under the 20% plan, can they do that more than once, or is it a one-shot affair?
MR. WILLIS: Twice.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister, if he could give us a breakdown as between the Bang's disease and the Sire Purchase Policy on this $162,000.00 odd.
MR. WILLIS: The Bull Sire Policy there was $73,474.00, and the balance is the other.
MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) Dairy Branch: (1) Salaries.
MR. GRAY: I figured that this Branch's duty is only inspection, which is a good thing. I wonder whether the government should not give a little bit more attention to promotion. The Dairy industry, in my opinion, is one of the most important industries in Manitoba, particularly it affects the urban districts. We depend on the dairy industry for our health, particularly the health of the children. The question is, is there anything can be done, or is being done in the way of promotion? What I have in mind is this: I am not going to discuss the margarine deal now, but the reason for the big sale of margarine, first of all is the economic situation - for the housewife has to pay less, but I have not seen anything done by the dairy industry or the government to advertise or put on a promotion sale for butter, in order to protect the dairy industry. I think, perhaps, that the inspection alone, which is important, is not sufficient. We are very anxious to have the dairy industry operate with a profit and with the competition they have now from the margarine, I don't think they have any chance unless they are being either subsidized in the way of publicity, as to the value of butter, or helped sell their product in order to encourage the dairy industry, particularly around the urban districts. My question is, what is being done in the promotion of the sale of the dairy industry, which is very, very important? It's a very small item, which covers only the inspection, as I see it, and not in any way the promotion or the encouragement of the dairy industry in this province.
MR. WILLIS: It is quite true that we spend our money on the cream-grading service and creamery inspection, but if there was to be a promtion in regard to dairy products, I suggest that it wouldn't be in this group who are professional dairymen and not promoters.
MR. GRAY: I don't see any other item in which I could mention it, do you?
MR. WILLIS: No, there's no special item for promotion.
MR. GRAY: Well, is there any consideration being given, or will it be given realizing the importance of the industry?
MR. WILLIS: There is a great deal being done, of course, in the various journals, and one particularly, the one known as "Dairy Month". And much is done there, particularly from the wholesalers, and they have set aside one cent a pound on butter, which is to be used to advertise butter sales. So mostly what is done there is being done by the creameries of Manitoba. They are doing the publicity to sell their own product.
MR. PAULLEY: Is that the creamery that's going into Falcon Lake?
A MEMBER: He didn't hear you. [Laughter]
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I am under the impression the way the Honourable Minister said that the creameries are giving one cent per pound butterfat for promotion, don't they charge it off from the farmer?
A MEMBER: Ask the creamery man.
HON. MARCEL BOULIC (Provincial Secretary) (Cypress): June is declared the Dairy Month. There is quite a bit of promotion going on in June, and one cent a pound is set aside and contributed by the producers, that is a cent a pound is deducted off the producer and passed on to the Department for advertising.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, the farmer advertises himself.
MR. CAMPBELL: I know that there is no item in here dealing directly with the Milk Control Board, but I presume this would be the proper place to discuss it. I am going to ask the Minister if the Board is at full strength now. I understand one of the members left the Province.
MR. WILLIS: One member left the province. His position has not yet been filled, but will be shortly.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) Salaries. (1) Salaries. (2) Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals. (3) Grant - Cream Grading Services.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Honourable Minister on Cream Grading services. When this amount is set aside, is it only for summer months for the students, or it carries all through the year, and second question, how often does that government man visit the creameries?
MR. WILLIS: They have six inspectors, who are employed in addition to the administrative staff. The increase in the appropriation is required to pay for the increased share of the inspection expenses, the annual salary of these men. I will just read this: From 1923 to 1955 the creameries paid the whole cost of the inspection of the creameries, and the cream grading services except administrative costs, through an assessment made by the government on butterfat at the creameries. In 1955, after strong representation from the creameries, the government paid a grant into the Cream Grading Service Account of $10,000.00, and repeated this in 1956. In 1957 this was increased to $15,000.00, in 1958 to $20,000.00. The staff of six inspectors and one comptometer operator are classified as the Civil Servants for the purpose of the Superannuation Act. The Dairy Branch is responsible for the inspection and supervision of sixty-five creameries, five cheese factories and the milk condensary in the province. A total of 1,626 inspections of creameries were made during the year. On these inspections, 61,360 butterfat tests were made, and 123,961 cans of cream were graded with the licensed cream grader.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, the Dairy Branch, I see that they've spent only $75.00 for newspapers, periodicals, text books and so on. Do you think that this amount is sufficient for them, for inspectors to be up-to-date in their work?
MR. WILLIS: I'll check on it.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, is the creamery man notified when the Government Inspector is going to come out? [Interjection - Pardon?] Is the creamery man, the man that operates the creamery, is notified ahead of time when the inspector is coming out?
MR. BOULIC: He certainly is not. [Interjection - No grapevine? ]
MR. WAGNER: Thanks.
MR. CAMPBELL: I think the answer that the Honourable the Provincial Secretary has given is perfectly right, and they give the Honourable, the Provincial Secretary went further and told the members of the committee that, I think, it would need all of his reputation for veracity to be believed if he told them the truth, and that is that these inspectors, their main concern about these creamery people is to keep them from grading the cream too high, rather than too low. Is that not correct? That's not the general opinion, but I think it's a fact that can be verified by the inspectors themselves, because in a good many places, the Honourable member knows better than I, competition is so keen that there is a possibility that the competing creameries will actually overgrade, and the Department here, the Dairy Branch, is concerned about the quality of the butter, because the Province of Manitoba sells a great deal of butter in eastern Canada. We produce much more than we can sell; we want to continue to sell it there. It's just as important to guard the -- to the people who are engaged in that profession -- it's just as important to guard the quality of the butter as it is to guard the quality of the wheat, and these folks are thinking all the time of the quality of the butter that is made, and trying to keep our reputation high, and one thing that has to be remembered is that
Manitoba butter, year in, year out, scores right up with the absolute tops at the Royal Winter Fair, and contrary to popular opinion, these inspectors are checking to watch that the creameries don't grade too high rather than too low.
MR. WAGNER: I understand that these government inspectors in my own wording is, they are protecting the creamery; aren't they supposed to grade and give a creamery a certain type of grade of cream and protect the farmer at the same time, not to under grade?
[Interjection - They are protecting...]
MR. BOULIC: I might add to this that the job of the creamery inspector is to see that everything is done according to Hoyle. Sometimes the people working in the creamery think that they are there just to be ornery. Personally, I am the owner of a creamery, and I am away from it most of the time. I am glad to see the inspectors go there because they look after the sanitary conditions, they look after, that the grading and testing is done right; they keep the employees on their toes, and they are also available at all times. The Department of Agriculture, the Dairy Branch rather, is here to look after the interests of the farmers. If a farmer thinks he is not being graded or tested right, he can ship in a sample at any time - take a sample out of his can of cream, ship a sample in here -- he'll get his test, and if the creamery doesn't come within one point in the testing, there is something wrong. The farmer is protected at all times. But then also, they've got to see that competition, as the Leader of the Opposition says, competition gets so keen at times that tendencies might go to overgrade; then what happens is that the producers themselves slacken up and after all your finished product cannot be any better than the initial raw product you put in. And if the farmers keep, don't keep their cream right, well, in that case, your grade of butter is going to go down and we're going to have trouble in eastern Canada.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, the colouring of butter, is it being inspected?
MR. BOULIC: In the trade, your No. 1 butter is - has got to be according to a chart, which we call in the trade from A.1 to A.3.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, the last question on this Item, I'm beginning to be as bad as the honourable member for Rhineland, but the last question on this Item, I promise you that I won't get out any more on this Item. Does the creamery man ask for government inspectors, or there is a policy that the government inspector will pop up at any time or any day into the creamery, or the creamery has to call the inspector?
MR. WILLIS: He pops up! [Laughter]
MR. WAGNER: Unexpected?
MR. WILLIS: Unexpected.
MR. BOULIC: I can add again here that there is an inspection usually once every two weeks, but I have seen a creamery inspector come in my creamery one day and two days after I've seen him back. So you never know when they're going to be in.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, there's always a great deal of attention paid to the grading. The testing is just as important as the grading so far as the producer of the cream is concerned. And these folks have a method by which they can check the tests as well. Quite frankly, this service is for the benefit of the producers and not for the benefit of the creameries primarily, but it does work to the advantage of both of them, and I think the system that's been put in is one that is largely responsible for the continuing high quality of Manitoba butter on the Canadian and world markets, and I can assure the honourable member that as far as these folks are concerned, although their relations, their efforts are appreciated by the creamery people yet there is no grapevine telling them when they are going to be around and they do act as auditors on behalf of the producers.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (c) Extension Services Branch, (1) Salaries - Passed. (2) Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals - Passed.
MR. PAULLEY: This Extension Service Branch, I notice there is a bit increase in the corresponding - the increase in number under salary. Has there been an amalgamation of departments or what is the extension going to take?
MR. WILLIS: There are 11 new employees and the one in ... are largely the question of additional expenses for those employees in doing their work.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (3) Poultry.
MR. CAMPBELL: Poultry flock approval, Mr. Chairman, there are a lot of - quite a little increase here, that's where the discussion on poultry matters generally should come up, and I confess I'm even less of an expert there than I am on some of these other matters. Could I ask my Honourable Friend the Minister to tell me why it was that the Farmers' Union, when they presented their brief to the government, complimented the government on random sampling testing of poultry? Would he explain what "random sampling testing of poultry" is, because anything that a government get complimented on they should pay a lot of attention to.
MR. WILLIS: I suppose the meaning is just what the words mean, namely inspection done at random and that's the way they do on the creameries as well. The increased expenditures, of course, are due to the teriffic expansion in the poultry industry which has taken place this past year and the outlays on inspection of flocks provides hatching eggs for hens and turkeys for commercial hatcheries. There has been, as you well know, a terrific change as far as poultry are concerned and in many places they have built two and three plants.
MR. CAMPBELL: There's an offsetting item of revenue here, isn't there, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's in (4).
MR. CAMPBELL: ... in (3) also.
MR. WILLIS: Yes, there is.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, as a matter of interest and information here as a new member, I would like to know under item No. (1) the salaries - 52. Does that include all the Ag. Reps. in the province? And No. (2), is it the intention of the department to increase the number of Ag. Reps. in the province or revamp the province? I understand that presently there are 36 Ag. Rep. districts and is it the intention to revamp the province to arrange for more Ag. Reps. or just what is the policy on that? We in the Gladstone-Neepawa area feel that our present Ag. Rep. is certainly overworked, so much so that in some sections of my constituency they really don't know who their Ag. Rep. is.
MR. WILLIS: We hope to organize, revamp, enlarge, and cover the province.
MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Just what qualifications do the people that do the blood testing require - just what qualifications?
MR. WILLIS: It's just a matter of taking a course and, incidentally, the best poultry blood tester I've seen is a woman and she is just lightning as far as blood testing is concerned. It's a matter of taking a short course and getting a permit to operate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Passed. (4) Short courses, Club Camps, 4-H Club Grants $20,900.00 less recoveries from the Government of Canada $7,000.00, making the item $13,900.00 - Passed.
MR. ROBERTS: Could the Minister give us a run-down on the 4-H Clubs, the progress and so forth?
MR. WILLIS: I think maybe if I told you the number of clubs it would help you greatly. Clothing clubs, we have 213 with 3,370 members; for foods, 17 for a total of 172; beef calves, 135 for 1,908; beef heifer calves, 22 clubs with a 165; garden clubs, 79 for 940; grain, 59 for 742; dairy calves, 24 for 265; potatoes, 22 for 256; sugar beets, 20 clubs, 316 members; swine, 21 clubs with 281 members; poultry clubs, 11 with 107 members; tractor clubs, 9 with 115; seed clubs, 3 for 45; sweet corn clubs, 1 for 13; bee-keeping clubs, 1 for 8; a total of 637 clubs - total membership 8,702.
MR. ROBERTS: Is that an increase or decrease from the previous year?
MR. WILLIS: Yes, it is an increase.
MR. ROBERTS: Because - for instance, swine clubs, 21; poultry clubs, 11; tractor clubs, 9; seed clubs, 3; as I have them here don't seem to be very many clubs of each of these categories for the Province of Manitoba and I think that there isn't anywhere that more promotion could be done to a better advantage, to a betterment of the
farm population of Manitoba than in fields such as these. Now beef, 157 - that doesn't seem to be too bad a figure - mean we're certainly in a category there where we feel that we have some beef clubs in Manitoba, but for the dairy to only have 24, and these others that I mentioned, I think it's not too high a number, for instance, for the number of Ag. Rep. districts that we have.
MR. WILLIS: It is our endeavour to promote as many clubs as possible for all of the different kinds.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that we should have this item passed without some of us at least, and the Honourable Member for La Verendrye has already done so very briefly, expressing our appreciation of the work that is done by these 4-H Clubs. I have said many times publicly and I would say it any place, any time, that it is my opinion that the most valuable work that the Department of Agriculture does, bar none, is in the 4-H Club work. As far as I was concerned, I used to pay almost more attention to the record of the individual agricultural representatives on the basis of how many 4-H Clubs they had and how well they did than almost any other factor, and I suppose it would be very easy for people to say that we could have a lot more of them if we had more agricultural reps., but the fact is that although the agricultural reps have much to do with it, they are by no means wholly responsible and when we pay tribute to the 4-H Club movement in general and to the really great accomplishments that they make, I think that we have to remember that perhaps the key factor of all, more important even than the agricultural rep., is the local leader or leaders as the case may be and the work that these folks do is really something to be very proud of, I know there are some, I would ... to mention any names, but I think most of you, if you will think of your own constituencies in the rural parts, most of you will know of the names of some people who have just simply given a great share of their time and effort to the 4-H Club movement and that's not meant to disparage at all what the agricultural reps. do, but the local leaders really do in many cases a simply outstanding job with these young people and the training that they get in addition to the qualifications for good farming in the particular line that they choose of these different clubs is something that I think makes for excellent citizenship in addition to just the material advantage that it will be to the young folks later on.
And then they have another great benefit, that in many cases it has been found that farmers who themselves would not be as ready as the most of their neighbors were to avail themselves of the educational material and modern methods and research information that was available and were rather inclined to be pretty slow about adopting the newer methods, once the young folks got interested in these 4-H Clubs, then you would find a great transformation in the attitude of the parents themselves. And I have also said on many occasions and I think it is absolutely true, that the young folks who manage to win the provincial finals in the competitions that are held annually here in Manitoba, and on the basis of having won the provincial finals in their individual club contests, then make the trip to Ottawa to compete in the national contests; I really think that that overall process, their year of work in the club, their taking part in the regional and then the provincial contests, then the team that is chosen to go to Ottawa, that it is actually as good as any year in university to those young people, and I think that there is no better work that the department is doing than this. I also think that perhaps the key factor of all in it is an unpaid, completely voluntary, seldom recognized, and not often spoken of person who is labouring with these clubs year in and year out, and that's the local leader and while I'm very, very appreciative of what the agricultural reps, the home economists, the staff generally of the department do, the voluntary effort that goes into this movement by the local people, including lots of the parents, is really quite inspirational and I commend this work to all the members who are in rural Manitoba as on that certainly deserves their greatest support.
Now having said all that, I would like to ask the Honourable the Minister to just indicate the short courses and club camps - how those items are separated out from the others because I know that expenditures are comparatively small as expenditures go these times, and the reason for that is that so much of the instructing is done voluntarily by local people so far as clubs are concerned, and then, of course, the agricultural representatives are employed by the department. But the other two items - club camps and short courses - what is the cost of each of those and how many are held?
MR. WILLIS: Yes, I'll give you the number that are held. The 4-H Club Camps were held in 1958 for 4-H girls as follows: 4 camps - Killarney, Gimli, Crawford Park and Dauphin for
a total attendance of 311.
Club camps for boys: Four camps for boys were held with 378 members in attendance. They were at Brandon Winter Fair - the 4-H short course judging competitions - June 30th to July 1st; Provincial Exhibition, Brandon - 4-H showmanship camp; July 2nd and 3rd, Brandon - 4-H boys camp; August 4th to 9th Gimli, 4-H boys camp.
MR. CAMPBELL: Are the costs given there?
MR. WILLIS: They are not. Sorry. If I can find them here, I'll give them to you.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, I suppose all the members of the House who have come to know me well, and too well, will be very surprised to say that in this case I wholly support this large expenditure.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to join in the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition. I think that it's common knowledge among most people of rural Manitoba that the 4-H Clubs are doing very good work. Being one who belonged to the 4-H Clubs for some 5 years, I can personally attest to that. Let it suffice to say that we notice here in the estimates that the grants have increased by some $3,000.00. Let us hope that next year they will be increased another $3,000.00 because, although we wouldn't want to mollycoddle the youths who belong to the 4-H Clubs, nevertheless, any small amount of money increased by way of grants certainly would be money well spent, as long as we don't overdo it, I suppose.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (d).
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we leave this matter of Extension Service, in answer of the question for the Member for Gladstone, the Minister said that they intended to, I believe, revamp, broaden and expand, and I think he had one other fine adjective in there, to what they would do to the department. However, that left me still in the dark as to exactly what changes they intended to make in the department. I wonder if he could give us more details as to the type of changes he intends to make?
MR. WILLIS: We announced, I think, that we were seeking eight more men; we were seeking four more girls for the service; that in general our policy was to place them with a regular Ag. Rep. to get that initial training and then send them where they were needed most.
MR. MOLGAT: Is it the intention, Mr. Chairman, to add to the number of Ag. Rep. districts, in other words, will the districts be reduced in size by putting more Ag. Reps. in the field?
MR. WILLIS: In some cases, depending upon geography, two will be in one position. In other cases, and in most cases, they will go out by themselves to a new district or one in which the boundaries have been changed.
A MEMBER: Are you all right in Ste. Rose?
MR. MOLGAT: Yes, we're very well in Ste. Rose. As a matter of fact, we are very well served. We have no complaints except that the area is somewhat large. I think there is one other aspect to look at, though, in this matter of extension service. At present an Ag. Rep. in an area has a large area to cover as a rule, but in addition to that he has a tremendous number of problems to cover and he has to be a poultry man, a beef cattle man, a dairy man, and a cereal grain man and so on, and is the department considering specialization instead of simply extending the number of Ag. Reps? In other words, wouldn't we be better off by possibly leaving the districts the present size but adding personnel so that two Ag. Reps. in an area would split the type of work? One man would take care of, say, livestock, and the other man would take care of other aspects. Is that under consideration by the department now?
MR. WILLIS: We have done that in two places - Dauphin and Brandon - where we have six and eight persons there, all specialists.
MR. MOLGAT: Is it the intention to continue that program into other areas where there are present districts established?
MR. WILLIS: Where needed, yes.
MR. MOLGAT: "Where needed", would indicate south-western Manitoba or would it indicate general areas in Manitoba?
MR. WILLIS: South-western Manitoba, like Ste. Rose, is well served.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask before we left the extension service generally, if the matter of the agricultural expert - the farm machinery expert, if you will, should that be discussed under that item or under agriculture development? Where does his salary show?
MR. WILLIS: Yes, it shows here.
MR. CAMPBELL: I was just wondering in that connection, Mr. Chairman, if there has been anything specific done by the branch with regard to farm equipment, because farm machinery, certainly I know that they have employees who are specialists in this work, but farm machinery is becoming such a large item in the costs of the farmer these times that anything that can be done to evaluate the benefit of these machines in advance is pretty important, and I am glad to see that among the research projects that the University is doing some of that, started, I hasten to add, before the present government came into office, but what, as far as the present agricultural branch of the extension service, what do they do in this regard? For instance, I notice that the brief that the Manitoba Farmers' Union submitted to the government mentions that there are some farm equipment companies who do not make any attempt to supply repairs for their machines. My guess is that that is contrary to the law if it's true. And they have quite a schedule on implement repairs here, and then they go on and make the point that the tractors, combines sales in Manitoba have greatly decreased because of the economic conditions. I wonder if the Minister can tell us anything that the extension service is doing either to help the farmers in the purchase of these machines or to see that repairs are kept and that he's not going to be in danger of finding that the machine that he buys at high price is not going to be useful to him for as long as he expected it. My impression is that we have a law in that regard.
MR. WILLIS: We have three agricultural engineers who are available. Before joining the government, I had consulted two of them with good effect.
MR. CAMPBELL: Did the honourable gentleman say 'he' counsulted them?
MR. WILLIS: What?
MR. CAMPBELL: Did the Honourable Minister say 'he' counsulted them?
MR. WILLIS: All I'm saying is, we have three men, I think, all selected by your government and all good men available for consultation with the farmer in regard to any of those problems. If you get on the right side of one of these men 'I' found 5 years ago, that he will give you a definite opinion and steer you clear of some of these machines that everyone should be steered clear of.
MR. CAMPBELL: I have no doubt that they are good men and that they know their business. I am sure of that, but what I wanted to know was what are they doing. I'm not alllowed to get in touch with them the way my honourable friend is now and I want to get him to tell us what they are doing.
MR. WILLIS: They are advising farmers with regard to the right type of machine. They are also advising him in regard to how to set their machines so that they will get the most out of their cultivation and mostly they are called in by the Ag. Reps. who have a particular problem in their area in regard to some piece of machinery and they call upon them and they go out to that area and give them that advice.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, is the department contemplating the establishment of a farm equipment testing bureau, or does it feel that this work is being done by the extension service at the present?
MR. WILLIS: I didn't get the first part, your question. I'm sorry.
MR. SCHREYER: I asked if the department is contemplating the establishment of a farm equipment testing service?
MR. WILLIS: We have not gone any farther in that direction other than to appoint three engineering experts to advise them - those three men. Not an official tester.
MR. ROBERTS: I noticed a - I think it was an item in the paper recently, or some time ago that the department had appointed a home design specialist. Could you tell us what her job is or was, and how it's faring?
MR. WILLIS: Was that a home economist that you speak about?
That's right. That's right. Designs in regard to homes. You're speaking about Carol Sanderson, I guess, and that goes with the rest. We have them, of course - clothing specialist and sewing specialists, and then a home design specialist because that has become probably more important than it was before. And I think as you go about the countryside, you will see the change in the countryside. The homes are better designed now than they used to be and they are not just boxes, and they're very attractive looking and they will assist them in that
regard inside and out, as far as the home is concerned.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, under which item may one properly ask questions about farm building plans as provided by the extension service? Would it be under this?
MR. WILLIS: I think so.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that in the extension service at present, there are plans which farmers may avail themselves of. Plans for the building of big barns, etc., but unfortunately these plans are much out of date, in some cases almost 10 years out of date. For example, a friend of mine who is interested at the moment in building a hog barn wrote to the extension branch asking for plans. Well, he received the plans. In his letter, of course, he advised them that he wanted to build a barn which would make it possible for mechanical cleaning and the like. Well, he received plans in the mail from the extension branch and these plans certainly were the kind of plans that would, you might expect, have been used some time around the end of the war. Now I wonder if the Minister is aware of this, and if so, will he look into it and do something about it?
MR. WILLIS: I'll be glad to look into that feature, although my own experience has been directly contrary. I had a problem in regard to open shed feeding which I took to Mr. Hudek. If you'll remember his name, Mr. Hudek - see him - and to me, he seemed to have all the pictures, the plans and the answers and through his advice I was prevented from making a serious mistake as far as my open shed feeding was concerned, namely, my foreman, who is sometimes a little hard to handle because he's been a foreman for a long time, insisted that we have the open side on the north. Mr. Hudek pointed out to me that that would be completely disastrous, so after a struggle with my foreman for about a month, I won and we put it on the south and it was there for three months and he said that's the finest thing you ever did, the foreman said afterwards. That's Mr. Hudek. I think he knows a lot about buildings but if you consult him personally, I think he will get you most of the answers to the problems that you have. Maybe if you just mail in, some girl may mail out - maybe they're trying to get rid of those plans, I don't know.
MR. CAMPBELL: I wouldn't think that the lay public would be much impressed by the recommendation that the Honourable the Minister gives Mr. Hudek if the only thing that he's been able to come up with recently was that the open side should be on the south side instead of the north. I think they'd suggest to the Honourable the Minister that maybe he'd better look for another foreman.
MR. WILLIS: Good advice.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (e), (f).
MR. CAMPBELL: I was going to ask the Minister how was the item of the recovery, the amount of it arrived at?
MR. WILLIS: Pardon?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4.
MR. CAMPBELL: The recovery $7,000.00. How was the sum arrived at?
MR. WILLIS: I'll look into that, Mr. Chairman. I haven't got it right here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (e) 1. Salaries. 2. Supplies, Expense Equipment and Renewals.
MR. TANCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I think this is the proper place. I do not think that the extension in laboratory facilities is keeping pace with the great expansion in agriculture in the line of livestock and poultry. I don't think that the laboratory equipment, the facilities are adequate for present day needs, especially since in the last few years, the last three years, a special line of poultry has increased tremendously. And I know that some of my friends in my constituency who are raising turkeys and keeping them for laying, they are experiencing great difficulties in the fall. It seems that these farmers, I am not one of them, these farmers that are keeping laying hens or breeder flocks, they have to wait in the fall until the laboratory is through with blood testing of chickens, consequently it brings inconvenience to turkey breeders, because by the time they get around to blood test the turkey hens, they are in production. The breeders cannot ship these eggs before the hens are blood tested and that causes delay, causes loss of money. I think that the government should look into this. And since their expansion has been so great within the last few years, I think that the facilities should be extended. I realize that this is for a short time only in the fall and we cannot expect the government to hire, say, ten or fifteen new personnel but I don't think it is the personnel that they're short of. We've
been told that they haven't got the facilities. They have the two testings and they have to get through with the blood testing of chickens before they can go into blood testing of turkeys, and it inconveniences the people very much, in fact some of the breeders got disgusted and just before Christmas they got rid of their flocks. And I know several that had their flocks blood tested after the Christmas season, away in January, the hens were not fit and they had to get rid of their hens, at a much reduced price. So I do not think it is fair to these farmers who depend for a livelihood during the wintertime on turkey flocks. I think the government should look into this and consider the advisability of expanding the facilities.
MR. WILLIS: I know that as far as the department is concerned, we have insufficient men and I also know we are looking for more at the present time. We have provisions for another veterinarian surgeon who could supervise a great deal of this work if that were done. If the member would write me a letter and give it to me in detail, I could probably be a little more effective on his behalf.
MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, there was some talk of the Federal Government entering into the field of veterinary or animal pathology in Manitoba. Was this just a rumor, a press report or is there some fact to it?
MR. WILLIS: I have heard nothing definite.
MR. ROBERTS: As the Honourable Member for Emerson has said, apart from the turkey flocks in the fall, there apparently is a great deal of difficulty at our veterinary laboratory at Fort Garry at most times of the year. One of the functions of the lab, as I understand, is the diagnostic service so that our veterinarians throughout the province can use or take advantage of the lab for diagnostic purposes. In many cases like this, there is a great need for hurry, for speed, because after all a disease in a flock or a herd requires quick diagnosis and most of the veterinarians have, I understand, found that if they send their specimens to Guelph, Ontario, they can get a report back in half the time they can get it by sending it to the lab at Fort Garry. Now this is the report I received, is this correct?
MR. WILLIS: We will definitely check that. I have not previously heard the accommodation was not large enough. All I've heard was that we didn't have enough professional men to do the work. We'll look into both phases.
MR. SCHREYER: Could the Minister tell this Committee what is being done with regard to the controlling of rhinitis and erysipelas disease? And also can the Minister explain why the reason for the government's decision to discontinue the handling of erysipelas serum, which I understand was handled by a governmental body?
MR. WILLIS: The reason for us discontinuing that, I know was because there was a much better serum came out that was much better for that purpose, although everyone didn't agree as far as it was concerned. But that was the reason. I remember having it up before in regard to those two disease but they haven't yet got a policy of assisting in regard to the new drugs.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, it may be that the answer just given has a good deal of merit to it but I wonder if the Minister realizes that since the government has discontinued the handling of the serum and since this new serum has been put into use, the price that the farmers have had to pay for combatting erysipelas has risen from about $6.00 to $20.00 for the same amount of medicine? Not that's I think quite serious. Granted the medicine might be better but surely it doesn't warrant an increase of almost 40% in price?
MR. G. HUTTON (Rockwood-Iberville): Mr. Chairman, I treat a few hogs and I can assure you it hasn't gone from $6.00 to $20.00.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, ...what the increase has been?
MR. HUTTON: ...as a veterinarian, if I remember correctly, it has gone from about $5.50 to, I think, $7.00 for the erysipelas serum but a good many hog producers now no longer use the serum. They use the ...treatment.
MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I meant the new modified erysipelas serum which is selling in the vicinity of $17.50, the same amount that was previously purchased for $6.00. As far as the old serum is concerned, it would be somewhere around $7.00.
MR. WILLIS: At the moment at the University there are special tests going on in regard to that, to swine erysipelas. It is being conducted at the present time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item d. passed.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the answer the Honourable the Minister gave regarding
the holdup at certain seasons of the year, I think if he would consult his records, he could give us the numbers of blood tests that are made in a fairly short period in the fall and I would think that the point that he makes that there being a shortage of veterinarians is not the real answer there. It is really, I think, just technicians that are required rather than veterinarians. My remembrance is that this number of tests runs up toward a quarter of a million, does it not? Physical handling of those agglutination tests is something that I'm sure the veterinarians don't do themselves and it's really a question of space and I think, less highly skilled help than the veterinarians.
MR. WILLIS: I think the point is well taken there, what we need additional vets for, or so I am told, is supervision in regard to the work. Somebody who has that degree must be there to supervise the work and to certify it afterwards. That is the point and I, as you say, that most of it is done by others.
MR. CAMPBELL: How many of the salaries of eight here, how many are veterinaries?
MR. WILLIS: How many are there which?
MR. CAMPBELL: There are eight salaries here, how many are veterinaries?
MR. WILLIS: There are three veterinaries of which one is vacant at the moment. There are three and then there are ...
MR. CAMPBELL: Dr. Isa and who else?
MR. WILLIS: Dr. Stanger. We have two that are there now and one is vacant. We have an appropriation for an additional one which is vacant. And then we have three lab assistants there in addition to that. And then there is a stenographer and a caretaker. That makes the total.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (d) - Passed. (e) Agriculture and Homemaking School Brandon. (1) Salaries.
MR. PAULLEY: What is the connection, if any, between this and the item which appeared in the Department of Education estimates? I think it was (b) (5) Homemaking School. Is there any connection between the two, because both dealt with Brandon?
MR. WILLIS: They have the building which we use.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, is this item on which the Minister of Education the other day indicated that the attendance or the enrollment was light and that he was giving conideration to possibly dropping this school? Would the Minister of Agriculture give us his views on the subject?
MR. WILLIS: I am just trying to find out what it says. The Department of Education was considering whether it should be discontinued or not. We were of the opinion in Agriculture that it didn't need to be discontinued and I think we told Education that. By some shifting of the courses, which is at present being done, we think that for some time to come, maybe for a very long time, there will always be a place for an agricultural school there. But we've had to do a little shifting as far as the courses are concerned and make them a little shorter and more frequent. That's been the practice.
MR. PAULLEY: If I recall the answer to my question, the Minister said they had the building and we do the instructing, or something to that nature. I don't think that was quite correct because the appropriation that I was referring to of $47,000.00 came under the directorate of vocational education. I suggest that that goes a little further than provision of the building. I'd like to know what the tie is. Why would there be an appropriation under agriculture if the same thing is taken care of so far as vocational education in the Department of Education estimates?
MR. WILLIS: Well, he's used between the two departments, part time for each one and that's the reason why you get it that way.
MR. PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, the building is the -- all right, let's put it another way -- the appropriation under the Department of Education of some $15,400.00 for the building, because the appropriation under the Department of Education apparently is for vocational training or vocational education.
MR. WILLIS: I think it is, because the larger part of it is with the Department of Education because they probably use it more than we do. In order to further confuse you --
A MEMBER: You're sure doing it.
MR. WILLIS: You will likely find that the building itself is in the Department of Public Works.
MR. PAULLEY: I was just going to raise that point. Now I want to know what happens...
MR. WILLIS: I don't know whether we can get it in any of the other departments or not but that puts it in three.
MR. PAULLEY: Again, Mr. Chairman, what does this item cover in so far as the Department of Agriculture is concerned? We have under item e. Agriculture, Homemaking School at Brandon Salaries 3 - what are the salaries, are they teachers or caretaker or what are they?
MR. WILLIS: We have at Brandon, the principal of the school, Mr. Forbes, we have the assistant principal, Mr. R. M. Rae, and we have a home economist, Sylvia ... and that is the school from our point of view. This school since 1949 and 1958 has offered a practical course, 4 1/2 months period, in agriculture and homemaking to young men and women from rural Manitoba. In many respects the Agriculture course is similar to that offered in the first year diploma course to students in the University of Manitoba. Instruction provided for young men was almost identical to classes offered a few years ago by the home economics at the University of Manitoba. A one or two year course of practical training in tailoring, sewing, handicrafts, foods, home nursing.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, we got down to why this is here. It has nothing to do with the building at all. It is actually instruction.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps one further word of explanation, the members of the Committee will recall that when we were dealing with this item under the Department of Education, I pointed out that we made a recovery under the agreements which we have with the Government of Canada for much of the instruction that is given there and largely for that reason the Department of Education enters into it, because the Department of Education by reason of the agreements which have, can recover part of the cost, and so referring to Item 4 (b), which has the amount of $47,000.00 along with the others, and then under Item 9, part of the recoveries are in respect of that particular item along with the others.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, we have had a lot of streamlining in these estimates. Possibly for next year the two might get together and we can deal with it at one time.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, if we could get from the Minister of Education just what use they make of these buildings -- in the Department of Education?
MR. McLEAN: Well, actually the courses that are given are, in a sense, courses which are allied to the courses given at the Manitoba Technical Institute with two exceptions, not with two exceptions but with two variations - one is that they are courses which relate largely to agriculture and related subjects and secondly that they are of shorter duration. Now there has been a change, I believe at one time it was customary to have courses lasting as long as 6 weeks, two months, and so on. During the past year many of the courses have actually been shortened in length of time but there are courses in like machinery, farm machinery and so on and of course, courses in things like livestock, care of livestock and animal husbandry and that type of thing. Those are the type of courses and then too, courses in carpentry, machine shop work and such like. As I say, courses which in many respects parallel courses that are given by the Manitoba Technical Institute.
MR. CAMPBELL: Are all those held under the auspices of the Department of Agriculture? Are all of them under Agriculture?
MR. McLEAN: Well, it is a joint operation. The personnel referred to by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture are, for example, personnel in the Department of Agriculture and the only reason that they, -- as far as I have been able to ascertain, the only reason that they come under the Education Department's estimates is that the courses themselves, the expenses attached to them qualify for recovery from the Government of Canada under the agreements that we have sort of in the Department of Education, and that is the reason they appear here. It is strictly, I think, correct to say that so far as the actual conduct of the courses is concerned it's under the Department of Agriculture. We don't give any instructions that I'm aware of to the people conducting the courses.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, if that is the case and the main reason for the greater portion of it, that is so far as the staff is concerned, being under the Department of Education, wouldn't it likewise be logical for the principal and the assistant principal to be under the appropriation as well, or is there also a recovery insofar as this item is concerned under Agriculture, because it would appear to me, Mr. Chairman, that if I understood the Minister of Education
correctly, one can get a recovery being in the Department of Education, being a technical school. I haven't heard that such is the case insofar as Agriculture is concerned but it would seem logical to me, and beneficial to the Province, that if they were both put under Education and we got a recovery in respect of both, it would be good business for the Province.
MR. McLEAN: Don't go into this too fully, we may lose our grants.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to increase them.
MR. GRAY: In the public accounts, 1958 shows that this item, they spent $5400.00, now it's $12,400.00 - was it extra help?... in the public accounts is a year old but according to Public Accounts of 1958 indicates that this Item expenditure was $5400.00, now it's $12,400.00.
MR. WILLIS: I'm sure that there must be some mistake in regard to that expansion here because according to my record in front of me, the increase this year was $270.00 and that last year it was $12... [Interruption] Yes, it was ...
MR. GRAY: The 1955 Public Accounts shows expenditures on this item as $5400.00...
MR. WILLIS: I'd like to look at that ...
MR. CAMPBELL: Would the Minister give us the figures as to the number of students at these various courses? I know the Minister of Education gave us some figures regarding the courses that show under that Department, could we have the ones that are applicable to this Department of Agriculture?
MR. WILLIS: There were twenty courses - 783 persons attended. [Interruption] 783 persons attended, in addition to that there were meetings, 94 meetings where 5,622 people attended.
MR. CAMPBELL: Surely, Mr. Chairman, with a record like that, surely we didn't understand a, right from the Minister of Education a short time ago, that they were thinking of discontinuing these courses.
MR. WILLIS: They haven't got my consent yet.
MR. CAMPBELL: No, but he stated rather definitely, he has his consent, why it might compromise a program pretty badly. Is that a considered statement?
MR. McLEAN: I think, Mr. Chairman, what I said was that there was some concern about the enrollment in the various courses and that was the reason for the change. If I said that we were definitely considering discontinuing it, then I was saying more than I had intended. I haven't looked at the Hansard but I did intend to indicate that there was some concern about the enrollment in the various courses. There were some of the courses given that had a very small enrollment.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, - ...when I'm eager and I'm certainly not attempting to perscribe any motives to my honourable friend because I don't remember exactly what he said but it struck me that he was even more than doubtful. Mr. Chairman, I think these are well worthwile courses. The ones that are of greater length as the Minister has said may find it difficult to fill the classes but it seems to me that with a little effort on the part of the Agricultural representatives and the Home Economists in their various districts that they could easily drum up enough attendance to fill these classes of the various courses very well and not only in the strictly agricultural fields but in the others that the Minister of Education mentioned. I think these are most helpful because I remember years ago being down there and seeing that the Power Commission people from, just the local staff of the Manitoba Hydro Commission there in Brandon, were working with the students on one of the courses having the frame of a building and were giving a course in home wiring. Now I know that a course like that is not popular with the well established electricians but it's tremendously popular with the farm people themselves and justly so, because it takes a comparatively small amount of instruction in that work to acquaint the young fellows of today, because today they grow up witha lot of electrical and other mechanical equipment and they're pretty handy at catching on to that type of thing and I think those, even short courses, are amazingly useful. And then the other one that the Minister of Education mentioned of some of the rudiments of carpentry and certainly mechanics in general and then the livestock judging and care, nutrition, etc., grain and all of those are, I think, extremely helpful and I would like to think that instead of any thought of doing away with these courses that there should be an effort on behalf of the Reps themselves and Home Economists and other interested groups and people to see to it that these courses are filled, for I'm sure they're very useful. We've had a lot of talk here about people going to the University - no matter how many scholarships, or
bursaries, or no matter how much financial assistance the government gives to the University, we'll never get a high proportion of the rank and file of the young people going to the University and there needs to be, for trades people and for farmers, there needs to be lots of other facilities where they can go and get practical instruction in the kind of work that they're going to be dealing in and I'm not the first to admit that this is not as good as the type of apprenticeship training that some of my honourable friends have spoken about here. The real old apprenticeship training was a great kind of a training. This is not duplicating it, I'm sure, but it does give them a start and it does, if they have aptitude for the work, it gives them an incentive to go ahead and I verily believe that schools of this kind are the very best feeder that the agricultural, the Faculty of Agriculture at the University could have, because out of this will come a lot of people who will be imbued with a desire to go on and get some further technical education, and if they don't, a great many of these young people are going to go back to the farm anyway, young ladies are going to get married, no doubt, and this is a fine training for them and I think it should be continued and even expanded.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to just say a word or two in connection with what the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has said. I think generally I can concur in all of his remarks that he's made as to the desirability of continuing this type of education. It is true as he says that the old type of apprenticeship is fast fading away. I'd suggest that outside of the railways and one or two of our large construction industries in the Greater Winnipeg area, there are very, very few indentured apprentices left. And I think that too, that it -- as the Leader of the Opposition has said, that this gives an incentive to the young boys and to the young girls to more or less find their nitch in society, and show their aptitude to the various trades or vocations, and I think it would be a backward step if there was any curtailing or suggestion of curtailing this, because, and I agree with him too, that we all can't be electricians and we all can't be plumbers and I don't think there's any desirability to have that and the object of these courses isn't for that. But I can find a very useful purpose served by these courses, paricularly in our rural communities. Now of course we have insofar as both plumbing and electrical installations, we have rigid building codes that we have to adhere to in our generally built up areas, but I think much of the practical training that can be obtained by young folk in courses like these is really worthwhile and will stay with them for life even though they don't follow it as a vocation, and I would suggest that rather than have them -- the Leader of the Opposition said, that rather than giving any consideration to curtailing or shortening or ending these courses that consideration should be the other way around, to give them an opportunity to take up these sort of courses, and who knows, maybe with some young fellow or some young girl, just by virtue of taking a smattering of a course like this, they may turn out to be truly fully qualified by pursuing it further in any respective trade.
MR. CHAIRMAN: ... 1 - Salaries; 2 - Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, somewhere, somewhere on this one, which is Soils and Crops Branch, guess we might as well do it right at the start, here is where I think that the Crop Insurance legislation, not the legislation, but the program might be further discussed and here is where the Minister might get an opportunity to answer the questions that were asked both on it and on the Farm Loans. I think that under the Salaries item on Soils and Crop Branch, would be as good a time as any to start on the Crop Insurance discussions. That's true, we started on it the other night but the Honourable the Minister hadn't had time then to read the Act and I hadn't had time to study the Hansard Report of what the Federal Minister of Agriculture had said in the House of Commons and I suppose that a good many others had seen practically as much as we had of the discussion up to that time, so I would like to ask at this item on salaries under the Soils and Crop Branch, some of the questions that are outstanding with regard to Crop Insurance. I believe the Minister was going to check with the Federal Minister, I don't know whether he was going to do it by telephone but he was going to get in touch with him to suggest a more generous scheme, I'd like to ask him if he's done that and so what is the result?
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, I tried to get Mr. Harkness in this regard to urge as generous a basis as possible and have been unable to do so although I tried him on the telephone. I do suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that the proper place to discuss Crop Insurance is when the bill comes forward in regard to Crop Insurance. I don't want to delay in the meantime but that's the proper place, so I suggest, to discuss Crop Insurance is when the Crop Insurance item is up. I'm not trying to hide anything in regard to it but we are still dealing with the Crop Insurance Bill, and -- but we haven't got it finalized and it's difficult because we have to find out first exactly what the Federal Government means by the Act which they have brought forward, when we will be able in detail to draft our own Act in its finality, and we have a group working on that at this time and I can't speak in regard to any finality at all until we bring forward that Bill in regard to Crop Insurance which we expect to do as soon as we get the details from Ottawa in regard to all these different facets of the Bill which they have just introduced into the House, and I think the discussion in regard to that will probably give us additional information, and what information is not immediately available, that I'll be able to get it from Mr. Harkness so we'll know exactly what they propose to do.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, ordinarily I would agree with my honourable friend in that regard but I'm sure that he is not sure that he's going to have the legislation before us
at this session. He's been most careful to say that he cannot promise to have it here. In the meantime the farmers of this province are very much concerned over this question because, Mr. Chairman, this Crop Insurance has been promised to them, promised by the Federal Government and promised by the Government of Manitoba, and I doubt, I'm just as doubtful as my honourable friend the Minister is that he will get around to introducing it this year and I think that we should have as full a discussion as possible here, so that at least as much information as can be shall be given out to the public because when we find it hard in here to interpret the information that is coming from Ottawa, when we find it hard to get the details from Ottawa, what in the world are the 50,000 farmers in Manitoba going to find it? It's going to be much more difficult to them and I think it would be in the public interest if we can get as much information out as possible now, particularly in view of the fact that it's very doubtful that there will be a Bill coming forward. Now, my honourable friend may correct that and say that he's still hopeful that it will come forward but I think that we have to take time by the forelock here and get as much information as we can out to the public. For instance, the Honourable Member for Gladstone told us that he had people asking if it would be in effect this year. I think that my honourable friend the Minister was very wise indeed to make it very plain that he could give no guarantee whatever of that because -- I can't speak for the government, but I would think that he should say even more definitely than that to the people of Manitoba that it's impossible that they will get it -- all the details arranged in time to have it in effect this year. And I think it's better that we should understand whether it is going to be in effect or not. Two governments have to act on this matter and I've had enough experience acting with one government alone, let alone two, to know how long the discussions are likely to be. But on the other hand, I certainly don't want to say that it won't be in effect this year. If the Minister in charge of the estimates here thinks there is still a possibility, then that's the right thing for him to say, but I think it's the wrong thing to get up the hopes of the farmers of Manitoba that there will be Crop Insurance if there isn't going to be and personally I can not see a chance of it being in effect for this crop year. And it makes it doubly difficult for the farmers this year because so many of them are already facing a crop loss. Some of them as have been mentioned in here have not even got a crop seeded, some of them have lost the crop that they have in, they've been losing some or at least having it damaged almost daily by one means and another and I think, Mr. Chairman, that we should try to get out to the public the fullest information that we can, and while I respect my honourable friend's position, and if he were able to say definitely that a Bill is going to be in here, then that would carry some weight.
I would still want to get all the information that we could in advance because I think it should be got out to the public as soon as possible, but if he can't say that most definitely, then I think we simply have to go ahead and try and get as much information as can be given, and up-to-date the information is very hard to assess. For instance, I re-read Hansard very carefully over the weekend. I read everything that was said in Committee on the Crop Insurance resolution and I did not find anywhere in there a reference to the term I used the other day of losses due to weather, and yet both newspapers of this city who likely are in receipt of pretty accurate information from Ottawa, because they maintain extremely close liaison there, both of them in their editorials have used that expression. Both of them have used the expression, "losses due to weather", in their lead editorials on Crop Insurance, and that is just one example of how difficult it is to get accurate information. Now I repeat for my honourable friend's consideration that No. 1, there should be further representations made to the Government at Ottawa; No. 2, it happens that the First Minister of the province is in Ottawa now. He will be very busily engaged, I know, for the time that the conference lasts, certainly we couldn't expect him to take the time out for any other business, but I would think that it would be very much in the public interest for him to stay an extra day if that is necessary in order to get the fullest information on the Crop Insurance proposal, because Ottawa at least is going to pass the legislation, I take it, and we should have the most up-to-date information that they can give, so that's my second suggestion that the Minister ask his colleague, the First Minister, to take advantage of his being in Ottawa to get the fullest information and bring it back to us here. In the meantime, I think that under the circumstances we must insist on the very fullest discussion here to try and get as much of the detail as is presently known out to the public of Manitoba, and I can't believe, I said in here before, I can't believe that my honourable friends who occupy the
treasury benches of the government promised crop insurance to the people more than a year ago and then re-iterated the promise on a couple of occasions since then in this House without having at least some idea of the main principles upon which their program would be founded.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The first item of course that we have under (f) is Salaries of the Soils and Crops branch. I think myself in view of what the Minister has said that there is a bill in course of preparation and secondly that he is awaiting further word and details from Ottawa before he can intelligently and thoroughly discuss this matter and also in light of the fact that the Leader of the Opposition has drawn attention to the fact that the First Minister is in Ottawa and hopes he may stay an extra day and that he may come back and perhaps have many details not before us at the present time, I think that what we should do is to proceed with the item which we have here and immediately before us, namely the salaries, and let the other matter as the Minister suggests come up at the future time. Salaries (1)...
MR. CAMPBELL: And where would we bring up the crop insurance, Mr. Chairman?
MR. WILLIS: I would assure the Leader of the Opposition that an opportunity would be made available for that purpose.
MR. CAMPBELL: That is we let one of these items stand.
MR. WILLIS: You could let--yes, some item stand. The total, if you like, which is the usual thing.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, not the total, Mr. Chairman, because we don't pass the total. We don't have to pass the total so there's no total to let stand, but...
MR. CHAIRMAN: Two?
MR. CAMPBELL: Pardon?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Two, then.
MR. WILLIS: The total for the Department, I was meaning you often do that or else you hold the Minister's salary, either one of which is satisfactory.
MR. CAMPBELL: The Minister's salary has already been passed, unfortunately.
MR. WILLIS: Well, let's hold the salaries on Soils and Crops then, we're not...
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the wish of the committee that the whole item of (f) stand?
MR. WILLIS: The whole (f) (1).
MR. CAMPBELL: Hold the Item 26, the whole vote for number 3 would be satisfactory.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable?
MR. CAMPBELL: What?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Why, we have passed all these others, why not--there's one particular item in (f) that should stand because of that, why--...
MR. CAMPBELL: I would think then, that there's one item standing, no. 3 of 3 (a) and...
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, 3 of 3 (a), that's right...
MR. CAMPBELL: But it would not--I think, it would not be appropriate, not be in order or appropriate to be discussing crop insurance on Livestock Promotion and Club Grants, but if one of these items is allowed to stand here, salaries would be all right, consider it allowed to stand, that would be--on that understanding...
MR. CHAIRMAN: It is agreed, salaries stand, (f) 2? Passed, (f) 3 Passed, (f) 4 Investigation and control of soil erosion ...
MR. GRAY: I'd like to know what constitutes the program and secondly, second question is, approximately how many acres of land in Manitoba now are for crops.
MR. WILLIS: That is what known as gully treatment in various individual farms all over Manitoba.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, on preparing for these estimates, I put down opposite the soil erosion item, the one where I thought perhaps I would discuss farm loans, because surely, surely if that one can be tied up to any part it would be the control of the land itself.
MR. WILLIS: May I ask the Honourable member if he's going to discuss farm loans on each item?
MR. CAMPBELL: No, we have discussed it only on the Administration item. I think nothing else since that time.
MR. WILLIS: We already had a very, very full discussion, unless you intend to do it all over again.
MR. CAMPBELL: We did have a full discussion but it was not concluded, and I think that...
MR. WILLIS: I thought it was.
MR. CAMPBELL: No, farm loans in something that's--rather different position to crop insurance because we not only had the bill before us and have it passed but the Honourable the Minister seems to be very pleased with the way it's been working out up to date, and there is some further information that I--is outstanding that the Honourable the Minister promised to give us and I think this would be a good opportunity for him to do it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd suggest under this one. Gully Loans. Soil Erosion.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, should that not come under Water Control and Conservation, or why the two items--there's a huge expenditure there for Water Control and Conservation on page 10, then we've got Soil Erosion in this item here.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister not prepared to give us the answers to the questions we're asking about the Farm Loans?
MR. WILLIS: I'm very sorry, Mr. Chairman, I thought I had. What questions were unanswered?
MR. CAMPBELL: Aren't we going to get the distribution of the loans, the 71 that have been approved?
MR. WILLIS: I think that will take considerable time. I've requested it but I haven't got it.
MR. CAMPBELL: Oh well, 71, 71 loans to look over, how long does that take?
MR. WILLIS: Well, I was unable to get it.
MR. CAMPBELL: Surely, surely, ... surely ...
MR. WILLIS: That's a little unkind, isn't it?
MR. CAMPBELL: Surely, Mr. Chairman, it's not difficult to go through 71 files with the help the grant has.
MR. WILLIS: Well, I assure the Leader of the Opposition that it will be made available just as soon as I get it.
MR. CAMPBELL: And then, as well as the, as well as the distribution, the geographical distribution by municipalities, as far as I'm concerned that would be sufficient if we'd give the municipalities that they're in so many in each of such and such a municipality and then I would be interested in seeing the--when they're going through that, to get at the same time the acreages that are covered in the various municipalities, because those will be--those will be shown on the loans, when they're taking them out, and if the Honourable the Minister doesn't think it too much trouble, I'd be glad to see the extent to which livestock has been taken as security.
MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher): While we're again on the credit loan, would it be possible for the Minister to say how many loans have been turned down, how many applicants have been turned down for the loan?
MR. WILLIS: Would the Honourable--would the members like the color the barns in each case too?
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, but that's pretty important how many have been turned down, that's a pretty revealing statistic if the...
MR. WILLIS: We'll get it for you.
MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you very much.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4 we're under, Investigation, Control of Soil Erosion $15,000.00.
MR. CAMPBELL: Now does my Honourable friend the Minister say that this is just gully erosion?
MR. WILLIS: It's soil erosion in general, but mostly because of recent investigations much, nearly all the money is spent on gullies, and the run-off, the spring run-off of water, that's the one that's particularly under investigation, but it would be incorrect to say all, it would be incorrect.
MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, but is it not--is it not correct to say that a great deal of it deals with cultural practises and calculated to reduce the effect of wind erosion as well, and sheet erosion of water, without necessarily being gullies?
MR. WILLIS: Many things are included under the word "erosion", but as far as this particular program is concerned, I'm advised that most of the money was spent on gullies.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, is that on gullies, just on the gullies themselves?
MR. WILLIS: Well, there are gullies and gullies.
MR. CAMPBELL: By "gully", I think the Honourable Gentleman's got something, though I must say the Honourable the Minister really gives us a great deal of information on these subjects. Now Soil Control, the Control of Erosion, water which is definitely soil conservation and water conservation have been two of the great things in the program of my Honourable Friend. Here is the item that deals with soil control, and what does my Honourable Friend say? It's gullies and more gullies, and there are gullies and gullies. Would the Honourable the Minister please tell us what the program is with regard to Soil Erosion?
MR. WILLIS: I think it's obvious from the words which are used. Strangely enough and it's quite unusual, I'm sure that the Leader of the Opposition would be very happy if he could chide me into making a half hour speech on each item. That I don't desire to be drawn into, and consequently I make them brief knowing that he knows the answer before he asks the question and that therefore it becomes unnecessary unless some of the other members of the House who have not been Minister of Agriculture for fifteen years in the line, that they might want to ask these questions in regard to it. The Honourable member who has just spoken now. He might be given some instruction because he's a railroad man rather than one from the country and he could tell us a lot about railroads, but I think Soil Erosion program is clear and the actual words which take place, but you have the spring run-off chiefly, and because of that waters flow quickly, and do a great deal of damage which has to be repaired. Why, in the past years I've seen much of that damage and particularly the worst damage I ever saw was at Gilbert Plains where there was a run-off down from the mountain. I attended many meetings in regard to Soil Erosion around McCreary where there was much run-off and probably will be for a while to come. The question of soil being destroyed by water running over it is pretty well known to be erosion. That's what by suitable methods we're trying to prevent.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable--Mr. Chairman, the Honourable gentleman has done me the compliment to say that I know about this, well, that's very kind of him, but he's still not got to what the program is. He told us what the problem is. What is this vote intended to do to correct that situation?
MR. WILLIS: The program is as it was last year with some expansion. If namely Mr. Wallace and others will go onto an individual's farm and he would be asked there by the Ag-rep to try and solve a problem in regard to spring water running across the man's farm. And he will advocate where it runs across, that normally one should put that into permanent grass and never have it in crop at all. But a mistake has been made. He'll prescribe the types of grasses to be used for that purpose. If there is alkali he will prescribe another and different type so that the alkali may be taken care of. He will ask in regard to the speed, the velocity of the water as it goes along there, as to whether it comes quickly and then drops down and digs holes there, which case he will advise them to fill them up with rocks so that when the water falls, if there is a small waterfall, that it should fall from those rocks and then go out quietly out across the newly planted grass and then in due course, later on in the season, the water will recede, then the farmer will be able to use that grass for his cattle where as formerly he had no use for it whatever. It merely created weeds and the ground was destroyed and it did his farm a great deal of damage. Those are the types of things which the experts like Mr. Wallace and others will tell the farmer when he comes on their land and it will be a very great use to them and will given them several acres of new land, grass land, so that they can carry on their farming operations in a much more efficient manner. Those are the types of things that are done by our Soils Specialists who may be called by an Ag Rep to go and face a particular problem on a particular farm to advise him under all circumstances, having in mind the type of soil which is there, the proper grass that is to be sown so that in the future the water will run over the land and not through the land.
MR. PAULLEY: The Minister has mentioned soil erosion as the result of spring runoffs of water. What procedure do they use with soil erosion by winds? Does that come under this heading as well? Where there is no spring runoff.
MR. WILLIS: You would be advised too in regards as to what to do in regards to that. You would be advised particularly that your summer fallow was too fine. You drive through the country and on the same day you'll go along one road and you'll see on the one side the land is
mostly in the air and you'll go along the other side which is also summer fallor and it won't be moving at all. The reason is the proper treatment, proper cultivation in regard to it. Leave the roughage on top and other methods of that kind so that that can be done as well and they can get that advice in regard to it so that in the future, the ordinary farmer doesn't need to have any soil erosion but he's got to get away from the old fashioned idea that his land should look like a garden, beautiful to look at and easy to lift up and taken away 50 miles. These things he can learn by talking to soil experts of which the Department has some of the best. That also is included but that's a matter which is not an expenditure, that is a matter which good farmers now know and which can prevent almost entirely soil erosion from wind.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I'm very sorry to transgress upon the territory of the agricultural experts, I realize that you and the Minister and the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition can argue scientifically. I cannot. I'm only interested in one thing, I take it if you cannot grow wheat or other crop on erosion land. My question is--how many acres approximately is in the Province are going to waste? Second question is--Whether any thought is being given to the difficult suggestion of letting the land rest every so many years by compulsion? In other words, if you don't do this, from my limited understanding of agricultural ideas, if you let it go and I think, I'm informed by agricultural experts, that it has been neglected for many years, if you let it go the farmers may lose half of their acreage in time and once you have this item here, whether the amount in the expenditures is sufficent enough, I don't know but my concern is that are we wasting by neglect land which could be cultivated? A very simple question from a layman and I think perhaps it would be advisable to know, unless you have no record of this, how many acres in this province are affected in this way and what is being done? All he told us is the reason why we have erosion land but you didn't tell us what is being done, you didn't tell us how serious the danger is and whether we could do something in the next, say, five or ten years to alleviate this situation because after all we need the land for cultivation, not only for today but we need it for tomorrow too and we don't want to see the farmer exploit the land to such an extent, that he wouldn't care to leave this land at a later date at the old age unsuitable for further cultivation. I hope you will understand my layman's complaint and question.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, with all sincerity I would suggest to the honourable member that he couldn't get an answer to that first question in a month's time at least, if we set out the whole Department because those figures are not available at the present time as to how much waste land there is on each farm and that would be a terrific task. However, in regard to summer fallow, I would suggest to the ordinary farmer now, summer fallow's third or a half of his land each year under ordinary locations. Now that somebody might pop up, and particularly the Member for Dauphin, might pop up and say that is strictly silly and he might very well say it because I've seen land in his area where they have grown wheat 50 years in succession on the same land. Because that land is so particularly deep in black loam they are able to do those things and not be too harmful as far as the land is concerned. I have not seen elsewhere in Manitoba any land to equal that in the Dauphin-Gilbert Plains-Grandview area and there you find farms that don't need summer fallow because they've grown good crops of wheat for 50 years in succession and their chances of doing it 50 years more would appear to be quite good. They are not harming the land to any degree which will affect the land now or in long time to come. So that practices because of the quality of the land must vary from place to place and that's what is being done and in some cases, as I point out, it is the regular practice to summer fallow half of it each year. In other places, I think the more standard rule would be that they do rest land one year and that discovery of summer fallow was discovered at Indian Head some years ago where they, because the Indians raided the place, they were unable to seed their land and they let if fallow and they discovered that the next year the crop which they had on that fallow land was more than double the crop which they had on the rest of the land because the land had rested and from there on, there has been a general practice in western Canada of having the practice of summer fallow in order to rest their land and keep it in shape for the next year. Now that's the best I can do as far as your question is concerned in regard to the amount of wasteland. There are no figures available to indicate that to us as to how much wasteland there is. In addition to that, there are those who want wasteland on their farms, particularly those who have cattle. They will have wasteland on their farms and that wasteland will grow grass to
sustain their cattle and continue them and therefore it is useful to them and a farm that has a lot of wasteland on it that will grow grass is an ideal place to raise cattle and consequently wasteland, if I may use the Irish term, is not really wasted, because in many cases it's a matter of putting it to the proper use and that's why we're going into the question of land use, and the proper land use because most of our land can be used for one purpose or another and the only thing we don't want to do and something which I think you have in mind, we don't want to ruin our land by wrong practices. We've had many wrong practices in the past but I think they have lessened for the present and when you get down to some places in Ontario, where the land has been cultivated for 150 years, there is nothing left, there is nothing left, it is just a reception bowl into which you pour seed and moisture and fertilizer. When Mr. Bracken bought his present farm and he is a soil expert, south of Ottawa, he said there was nothing in the farm at all. It was merely a container into which he had to pour seed and moisture and fertilizer and from that, because of those processes and those expensive processes he was able to get some crop. There they have spoiled their land, thousands and thousands of acres--we in western Canada have probably spoiled some too but to a lesser degree because our land is younger and we are, the Department is trying to get people to have better land practices because we know it is already too late, we've already wasted and spoiled some of our land. We must retain, try to retain that which is left.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister's explanation of the government's program to combat spoil erosion seemed to centre around that of soils specialists and ag reps giving advice to farmers and farmers following that advice. Now the expenses incurred then would be covered under Sub-Item 1 - salaries of these soil specialists. What conceivably then could account for the expenditure of $15,000.00 under Sub-Item 4? Would the Minister explain to the committee just what expenses are incurred here?
MR. CHAIRMAN: For No. 4?
MR. SCHREYER: Yes.
MR. WILLIS: The expenses incurred there would be--some cases paying part of a share of the cost of grass seed, it would be in a number of cases paying expenses of those men who go out to advise the farmer as to what to do in regard to soil erosion and many of those specialists are engaged full time. In the summer time out practically every day advising individuals as to what to do and it is in connection with that that you mostly get your expenses for soil erosion.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, under this item, should we discuss or is it right to discuss the Save the Soils Clubs. I would like to know how many Save the Soils Clubs there are in Manitoba and the total membership of the clubs and are there grants made available to the Save the Soil Clubs? I know that in my constituency there are probably three or four, probably half a dozen Save the Soil Clubs and they're doing a wonderful job--a lot of it voluntarily as the Leader of the Opposition has said--but they have demonstrations on their farms to show what can be done in the way of good soil management and so on and I think that the Save the Soil Clubs should be encouraged by making grants available to them.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, the Save the Soil Clubs are included in the 4-H Clubs as well and get assistance in that regard, and I think I read out to you a few moments ago the number of those Clubs that there were in the Province of Manitoba.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4 passed?
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to speak again on this item because I really feel a little bit embarrassed by following my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, because he's such a gentlemanly sort of a chap and he speaks in such rounded periods and he gets sometimes a little carried away with his own enthusiasm that I really hesitate to follow him on some of these discussions. I find it difficult to follow him too and I would gladly let his lecture to the Honourable the Member for Inkster go unanswered except for the fact that to quote my Honourable Friend from Inkster, I would hate to have my grandchildren find out that I sat silent and listened to such an oration without taking some exception to it. I don't know why my honourable friend felt constrained to give the story that he did to the Honourable Member for Inkster--I just can't figure it out. First and foremost, I'm sure in my own opinion that there's no farmer in the Dauphin District that is silly enough to grow wheat on the same land for 50 years hand running.
MR. WILLIS: I'll take you there.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, I'd be ... I wouldn't like to say that I'd be delighted to see it -- that would be a practice that would be so ridiculous that I don't think, I don't think it obtains. Certainly the soil there is excellent but I wouldn't want my honourable friends discertation on summer fallow to go unanswered either because my honourable friend from Inkster is honestly interested, I know, and the land for thine inheritance and he does try to make a contribution in his layman's way as we all do to an appreciation of the tremendous resource that we have in the soil of Manitoba and I know, because he has asked me these questions years ago and I know the study that he has put into it from a layman's point of view how interested he is. I know that he has likely read that it takes a thousand or it may be five thousand years to make an inch of soil and he has some appreciation of just what that means to this generation and to posterity for all time to come. He knows, I'm sure, that good soil, properly used, doesn't wear out. It just does not wear out and soil can be husbanded in a way that it will be handed on to generation to generation just as good as it ever was and even improved and that's the reason for good cultural practices. We maybe don't think that the Chinese people are the most forward looking in a great many things but there is land in China that has been continuously farmed for five thousand years and is as good land today as it was before. This thing -- [Interjection] -- yes, yes -- and other care as well, that's right. But this question of summer fallowing that my honourable friend raises and to which the Honourable the Minister replied, in my opinion, so imperfectly, is not a case in western Canada so much of resting the land because the rest of the land -- it doesn't need a rest at all so long as a variation of crops and proper soil practices. What summer fallow is usually done for in the regions of low moisture is to store moisture and it's for storing moisture purposes that the practice grew up in practically everything from Portage la Prairie west or other places. Storing moisture would be the first concern, not to rest, and I guess the second, the second main reason, and this is in the areas that are not troubled much by lack of moisture as those others, one of the main reasons is to control weeds and controlling weeds in itself is a saving of moisture. So I just wanted to point out that, for my honourable friend's information, if he wants to study this matter further, I think he'll find that in this part of the country those are the main reasons rather than the resting of land because the resting can be arranged by giving a rotation of crops and still be kept in production with no harm to the land at all. I don't remember offhand the number of tons of water that it takes to produce a bushel of wheat but I can assure my honourable friend that it's very many tons of water to produce a bushel of wheat and so in a reason as much of western Canada is of very low rainfall, the storing of moisture is tremendously important and then because for a long time we did let the weed situation get away and it's by no means completely cured yet although herbicides are helping a great deal in that regard. The control of weeds, I think, is the second main reason which ties in also with the saving of moisture. So that I must say that whether he was quoting scripture or not, I think that it's not resting the land that is the main consideration in western Canada.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Honourable Leader of the Opposition would agree that the legend as to what happened at Indian Head, Saskatchewan was a fallacy?
MR. CAMPBELL: I wouldn't say that it was any more far fetched than some of the other things the Honourable Minister has told us during the course of these estimates.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, I always like to listen to these long speeches by the Leadder of the Opposition because he makes them on every item, because this is, after all, a minor filibuster which has continued over the day. I should like to tell him, however, that the farm that I speak of is Mr. Buchanan's farm, just west of Dauphin. I stood on it myself and he told me that he had cropped it for 50 years of wheat and believe me, he's an honest man because he was a Member of the Legislature for a number of years, and consequently I think we must stick up for him as being honest. He told me that and also the neighbours told me the same thing and I merely take the opinion of a man who was born and brought up on the one farm that he would tell me the truth and I think he did. Now to everything I say the Leader of the Opposition takes exception - in regard to summer fallow and the resting of the land, that is part of the process. Sometimes they have plenty of moisture. Sometimes it's the control of weeds and sometimes they don't have weeds and they probably don't need to control them and therefore these things, of course, are all part of the picture and if one wanted to drag out a few more, one could mention several other items in regard to it but all I was trying to illustrate - the member had asked me in regard to summer fallow and I had talked to him about summer fallow and the net result of summer fallow,
whether it is to rest the land or store the moisture or get rid of the weeds, is that ordinarily it produces a much greater crop than would otherwise be the case and if the Indian story is not believed by the honourable members, I would have to bring them that story in French so that they could enjoy it as well and know that it was authentic.
MR. CAMPBELL: And I'm going to agree with the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. I believe that likely what he said about Mr. Buchanan was correct but I'm sure now, I think the correct story has got out, I'm sure that what Mr. Buchanan said then is that he'd been farming there, that every year he'd grown wheat. It wasn't that he'd grown it on the same field for 50 years. I'm sure that's what it was.
MR. WILLIS: The same field.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 5.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before leaving this item. I understand that the University of Manitoba has been conducting tests on the value of summer fallow. Test partly to check the water conservation part of it and tests as well to ascertain the fertility and development of nitrogen during the lay over period. Could the Minister give us some idea of what the results of these tests have been?
MR. WILLIS: I have not seen the results of those tests.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, this would be a very important factor to agriculture in the Province of Manitoba because if we could get away from the normal three year rotation and either build it up to four years of production and the next year a fallow, it would mean quite a change in costs to farmers. For every year if you're operating on a three year rotation, you take one year with no crop, but still almost the same costs. I understand that the Federal Department of Agriculture in their studies at Brandon have produced a figure something in the order of $8.00 or $9.00 per acre cost of summer fallow and during that whole period there is no production. It seems to me that this is something the Minister should look into and push very actively if it can be shown that, in the Province of Manitoba, we can do without the frequent summer fallow - it would mean a very big change in our agricultural results.
MR. WILLIS: I have discussed with the Dean of Agriculture, Mr. Weir, on many, many occasions experiments which they're carrying on at the University and he did not on any occasion mention this particular experiment. However, I shall be glad to look into it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass 6?
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before going on. Last year in the estimates there was a figure there for community pastures under the same heading. Did this appear under Soil and Crops this year? Does it appear elsewhere in the estimates?
MR. WILLIS: I know we have them and that there is an expenditure. I'll double check that - I think it's under Mines and Resources.
MR. ROBERTS: Subsection (c) of Section 8. Mines and Natural Resources. Mr. Chairman, under the Community Seed Cleaning Plant, would the Minister tell us how many Seed Cleaning Plants there are operating under this system, how they're faring?
MR. WILLIS: One operating, two under application. Only one completely in operation - at Rivers.
MR. ROBERTS: Where are the two under application?
MR. WILLIS: Well, I know that one is at the very important town of Boissevain and I'm not certain of the other one but there are three.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before leaving the matter of community pastures, the same figures was in last year under Mines and Natural Resources as well, and I'm sure that there is a pasture unless they have been changed recently but there was a pasture operated by the Provincial Department of Agriculture. It was the Sleeve Lake Pasture in the Inter-Lake and unless they have put it elsewhere or turned it over to the Federal Government, how is it going to be operated and what's happening to it?
MR. WILLIS: Well, I think you will find that it does operate and it's under a separate item as far as we're concerned. There has been no change in policy.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 6 passed?
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, will we have a chance to discuss this community pasture or not?
MR. WILLIS: Yes.
MR. MOLGAT: At this stage or at a later state?
MR. WILLIS: Well, at a later stage.
MR. MOLGAT: Yes, but when it comes, it doesn't come, that's the whole point.
MR. WILLIS: You will be able to quote the record in which I said that there would be an opportunity.
MR. MOLGAT: Very well then - before the end of agriculture estimates.
MR. PAULLEY: It's eleven o'clock. Possibly that would be a good start off after we're finished this item...
MR. WILLIS: I suggest we finish this item we're on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I suggest that we finish this one item down here. Item 7.
MR. CAMPBELL: Item 1 is standing anyway. I have some remarks to make on the distribution of weed control chemicals. I might be encouraged if my Honourable friend is interested to even stage another filibuster as he calls it, because he has encouraged me to say something about that with his remarks about weeds.
MR. WILLIS: Would the Honourable member mind making it now?
MR. CAMPBELL: Not at all. Not at all.
MR. WILLIS: Good, good.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Should we pass it or ...
MR. CAMPBELL: We haven't...
MR. PAULLEY: We haven't reached it.
MR. CAMPBELL: We haven't finished...
MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 6 passed?
MEMBERS: Passed.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 7?
MEMBERS: Passed.
MR. CAMPBELL: No. Seven is the one that, dealing with the distribution of weed control chemicals. I would like to ask my Honourable friend the name, or names, of the municipalities who said that they had no Weed Inspector.
MR. WILLIS: The statement was made by the secretary of the Municipal Union at the executive meeting. He didn't name any of them.
MR. CAMPBELL: What was the statement?
MR. WILLIS: That some of the municipalities didn't have Weed Inspectors.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, doesn't the Act say that they must appoint a Weed Inspector?
MR. WILLIS: I don't know. I don't know all the Acts. There are many volumes.
MR. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): I know that the Municipality of West Kildonan, now fully paved, is still appointing a Weed Inspector. [Interjection]
MR. CAMPBELL: That qualifies. That's a Weed Inspector! I didn't get the...
MR. WILLIS: I don't think the place where you and I live that there is a Weed Inspector.
MR. CAMPBELL: I didn't get the statement from the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks.
MR. PAULLEY: ... fully paved in West Kildonan, but they still have a Weeds Inspector.
MR. CAMPBELL: Good! Good! It's interesting to see that they're living up to the Act.
MR. WILLIS: [Interjection] They have a dogcatcher instead...
MR. CAMPBELL: GOOD, we might find him around the weeds sometimes. Mr. Chairman, I just want to disagree with what the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture has said with regard to -- [Laughter] -- to the situation here on weed control. I would like to know from him what he intends to do, he and these people whom we now have know something about weeds, what they intend to do that has not been done before.
MR. WILLIS: I have a big brief on it, but I think it's too late to read it.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I'd point out that it's -- what I'm asking is limited in scope, because I'm asking for the -- [Laughter] -- for the part that has not been done before.
MR. WILLIS: I wouldn't be sure that much could be said along those lines because it's mostly a question of a projected policy for the future. It isn't something which we've already done; it's something which we propose to do. I don't think there is anything that we have done yet that was not done before in regard to weeds. I don't think so. No change. The whole point of the matter is that they were suggesting to me changes, improvements which should have been
made, which I have now under review, and which nothing has been done about yet.
MR. CAMPBELL: And what are those suggestions? That's all I would like to know. What are the - what is the program?
MR. WILLIS: I'd be glad to bring my brief tomorrow, which I haven't got here today, and give you a full treatment on it.
MR. CAMPBELL: I see. I'd be glad to hear it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 7 passed?
MR. CAMPBELL: No, no, let the item stand.
MR. PAULLEY: If the Minister is going to bring in his brief on weed control, Mr. Chairman, I think the item should stand. I had one or two questions that I was going to ask in connection with weed control; again in view of the statement of the Minister on the question of weeds.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions and directed me to report the same, and ask leave to sit again.
MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable member for St. Vital, that the report of the Committee be received.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.]
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that this House do adjourn.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and declared the House adjourned until Tuesday afternoon at 2:30 p.m. ]
Page revised: 28 March 2012
