| 573 | 574 | 575 | 576 | 577 | 578 | 579 | 580 | ||
| 581 | 582 | 583 | 584 | 585 | 586 | 587 | 588 | 589 | 590 |
| 591 | 592 | 593 | 594 | 595 | 596 | 597 | 598 | 599 |
| Page | ||
| Petitions and Introduction of Bills ..................................................................... | 573 | |
| Introduction of Bill No. 8, re Conservation Districts, Mr. Willis ......................... | 573 | |
| Question: Mr. Campbell (Mr. Willis) ................................................................ | 574 | |
| Correction, Mr. Campbell ................................................................................ | 575 | |
| Welcome to Visitors: Mr. Willis, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Paulley, Mr. Gray ............ | 575 | |
| Question: Mr. Desjardins (Mr. McLean) .......................................................... | 576 | |
| Motion re Matter of Great Urgency, Lake Manitoba Level, Mr. Guttormson ..... | 576 | |
| Mr. Molgat, Mr. Willis ............................................................................... | 577 | |
| Mr. Campbell, Mr. Corbett ........................................................................ | 578 | |
| Mr. Campbell, Mr. Corbett, Mr. Wagner ................................................... | 579 | |
| Third Reading Bills, Nos. 49, 58, 70, 71 .......................................................... | 579 | |
| Bill No. 3, re Traffic Act, Second Reading: Mr. Carroll .................................... | 581 | |
| Mr. Hillhouse ............................................................................................. | 583 | |
| Mr. Paulley, Mr. Hawryluk ......................................................................... | 584 | |
| Mr. Lyon ................................................................................................... | 585 | |
| Mr. Carroll ................................................................................................ | 586 | |
| Committee of Whole House, Supply | ||
| Agriculture and Conservation, Administration ................................................... | 588 | |
| Agriculture, Livestock Branch ..................................................................... | 596 | |
[Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker.]
MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions.
MR. J. COWAN (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of our own Malcolm Campbell and others praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate the Wildwood Club.
MR. W. B. SCARTH, Q.C. (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Guarantee Trust Company of Canada, praying for the passing of an Act respecting Guarantee Trust Company of Canada and The Western Trust Company.
MR. M. E. McKELLAR (Souris-Lansdowne): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a petition of E. E. Mills and others praying for the passing of an Act to incorporate the Grand Chapter of the Manitoba Order of the Eastern Star.
MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions.
Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees
Notice of Motion
Introduction of Bills
[Mr. McLean introduced Bill No. 57, an Act to amend The Teachers' Retirement Allowances Act.]
[Mr. Evans introduced Bill No. 82, an Act to amend The Mineral Taxation Act.]
[Mr. Evans introduced Bill No. 83, an Act to amend The Pipe Line Act.]
HON. E. F. WILLIS, Q.C. (Minister of Agriculture & Immigration) (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, to consider the following proposed resolution: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the Establishment of Watershed Conservation Districts to Conserve the Water Resources of the Province, the appointment and payment of staff to assist the district boards; the appointment of a Watershed Conservation Commission and the payment of the cost of inquiries and surveys undertaken by the Commission.
[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.]
MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for St. Matthews take the Chair?
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution, recommends it to the House.
[Mr. Chairman put the question.]
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, there has been in the past a great deal of discussion in this House in regard to watersheds and water control. This Bill really coincides with the bill which we have on conservation, which sets up the board and the commission. The commission, which will handle watershed matters, of course, will be Mr. Griffiths as Chairman, Mr. Parker, who is in charge of land-use in Manitoba, and Mr. Schortinghuis, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Last year we had a bill, an Act which proved to be not satisfactory and this one sets up the power whereby a district, a watershed, can organize and consider together the problems - its problems of drainage and water. This sets up the machinery for doing it, makes provision for the commission, makes provision for engineers as well; and in effect on the application of the local districts, they can get advice and money and proceed with the watershed conservation.
MR. R. PAULLEY (Leader of the C.C.F.) (Radisson): Mr. Chairman, how many districts will there be?
MR. WILLIS: Depending entirely on the number of applications we receive and approve. There may be a few, or there may be many.
MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, does the Interlake area come into this - will it be considered in this particular program?
MR. WILLIS: While some governments don't consider the Interlake within Manitoba, we do. It comes within that jurisdiction.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Minister, following my first question, how are districts brought into this scheme?
MR. WILLIS: By application.
MR. PAULLEY: From whom?
MR. WILLIS: From the municipalities within the district.
MR. PAULLEY: I see.
MR. GUTTORMSON: What about the unorganized territories? What happens in those areas?
MR. WILLIS: If they are within a watershed, they'll be cared for as part of that watershed by the Provincial Government.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted? ... Passed. Will the committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker.
MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House has adopted a certain resolution and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, that the reports of the Committee be received.
[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried.]
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Education, that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 8, an Act to provide for the Establishment of Watershed Conservation Districts to conserve the Water Resources of the Province, and the same be now received and read a first time.
[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried.]
MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I should like to acknowledge receipt of a very large, fat, political looking cigar, which I received and which I appreciated greatly. I think though the card definitely contains two misconceptions because -- firstly, there is an assumption that because she was happily born on July 4th, that she would be an American. But the biggest presumption is on the first, when it said that she will be a Liberal. I am quite sure that she is a smart child and she'll soon smarten up and get away from that.
MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the Honourable the Leader of the House in acknowledging receipt of the momento and congratulating the proud parents on the birth of a daughter, who apparently is going to follow in the paths of righteousness. I believe that all the folks expect me to live up to my nationality and name and to be very, very appreciative of occasions that bring little gifts with them, and so I will simply say "Thank you" to the honourable member and hope that he will so successfully follow the tradition of the race that I will soon have a whole box of cigars.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join in congratulating our honourable friend on beoming the father - I would say a proud father - of a daughter. Now when I observed the card, I noted that on the face of it, it said "It is a Liberal, " and I would suggest to that honourable party, Mr. Speaker, that it's about time they started on the ground floor rebuilding. It may take quite a long time, but I can appreciate the sentiments contained in this card. And Sir, unlike the previous two speakers, being a cigar smoker, I certainly will enjoy this La Palina, and I want to thank the Honourable Member for St. Rose most cordially for his kind donation.
MR. G. MOLGAT (St. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I just want to acknowledge with thanks, the compliments that have been passed around and report that the mother and child are doing exceptionally well, but the father is in rather ailing health.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like permission of the House to substitute the name of the Honourable Member for St. John's in place of the Honourable Member from Elmwood, who unfortunately is ill, on the Committee on Private Bills.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I have two matters that I would like to mention briefly. First, I would like to ask the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture if he is in a position to lay on the desks of the members of the House, the 1958 Progress Report on agricultural research. He referred to the work being done in co-operation with the University of Manitoba, and it would be helpful to us if we had that progress report while the discussion of the estimates are going on.
MR. WILLIS: I'll be glad to do that.
MR. CAMPBELL: Could we have it ...
MR. WILLIS: Just as soon as I make a speech.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, the speech has already been made. However, I would appreciate it if we could get it as soon as possible.
MR. WILLIS: Yes.
MR. CAMPBELL: And then, Mr. Speaker, I have to suggest a correction on this occasion, not in Hansard, because I have to rely here on Hansard to prove my point, but instead a correction in the Free Press, first page report of July 3rd. The heading is "Don't Coddle Youth - Need Gumption, Not Grants - Campbell." And the first paragraph starts "unimpressed by the ideas of the 'so-called experts', Liberal Leader D. L. Campbell Thursday demanded that the government stop mollycoddling the youth of Manitoba. Mr. Campbell speaking on university grants, vigorously assailed those who want to spend more and more on scholarships and bursaries for university students. " There's considerable more, but that's the operative part that I want to check on. I want to make it very plain, Mr. Speaker, and I think the honourable members of the House would notice at the time, that I put scholarships and bursaries in a different position. And reading from page 470 of the Hansard of July 2nd, here is what I said, "I agree with them, " this was after talking, I think, about the position taken by my honourable friends, "I agree with them completely about scholarships and bursaries, where they can be shown to be really needed; but I also believe that in these times when young fellows can go out and make the money that they can in so many different places, I believe that we don't need the taxpayer carrying an increasingly heavey share, etc., etc., " and if the honourable members will remember, I think it was quite evident that I made a pause between the words scholarships and going on to 'and bursaries, ' the intention being to put the two in quite a different category.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I should like to inform the House, we have visitors in the Speaker's gallery, three important gentlemen from Wisconsin. Mr. Norman Sussman, Assemblyman for the Second District of Wisconsin; Mr. Harry S. Sicula, Attorney and Counsellor at law from Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Mr. Edward T. Millman, I know that you would have me welcome them here today to our Assembly; and if I might say a word on behalf of myself, it is this: I've always been a strong supporter of the Milwaukee Braves and I am hopeful that this year they may succeed, because this is the closest city, as far as we are concerned, that's in either the National or the American League; and I want to go down to the World Series. We honour them here today.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join very heartily in the welcome that the Honourable the Leader of the House has extended to our visitors from the great state of Wisconsin, which is one of our very near neighbours, and I would like to put in a plug along with him for tickets to the World Series, when it's held in Milwaukee.
MR. WILLIS: I have the tickets.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, after my honourable friend and I discuss agricultural matters, perhaps I can not depend so much upon my honourable friend as I could on our friends from Wisconsin.
MR. WILLIS: We'll go down together.
MR. CAMPBELL: It is a pleasure to have visitors here. I don't know their purpose -- I'm sure they didn't come just to listen in on our deliberations -- I'm not even sure whether Wisconsin is one of those states, which holds a session only every two years. If they are, they can certainly take an interest in we folk in Manitoba, where we have been having about four a year, instead of one every two years, so if it continues they can come very often to visit us. Seriously, however, I do say that we're always delighted to have visitors from the United States; if they wait around a little while, they'll probably hear us discussing the estimates of the Department of Agriculture and even the Dairy Branch, and inasmuch as Wisconsin is the heartland of the dairy industry in the United States, perhaps they would be interested, at least, in that part of our discussion. We are delighted to have you with us.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join, as far as our group is concerned, in welcoming our distinguished guests here to the Province of Manitoba. Were it not for that very, very faint, invisible, almost invisible line, between the great nation to our south and ourselves, I'm sure that being an agricultural state, that the honourable gentlemen would most likely like to come down into the Chamber itself and discuss with us the progress in agricultural matters,
particularly insofar as milk and honey is concerned, which I understand is one of the prime products of that great state to our south. We join in the welcome to you honourable gentlemen!
MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I had the pleasure of meeting one of my co-religionists, one of the guests from Wisconsin who is a member of the State Legislature. The question of his purpose is attending the B'nai Brith International Convention, which is being held this week in Winnipeg. I suggested to him last night that he probably could occupy one of the honour seats here, but I don't know the rules of the House, whether he can or not; however, he is coming in here, leaving the convention, for one purpose only -- to study the work and the rules of this House. So in view of this, I thought perhaps that the honourable members here will try to behave this afternoon.
A MEMBER: Hear! Hear!
HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the First Minister, I wish to lay on the table of the House, a Return to an Order of the House No. 15, on motion of the Honourable Member for St. Rose.
MR. L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct this question to the Honourable the Minister of Education. Normally, this question should have been asked while we were reviewing the estimates of his department, but at that time I had no reason to ask it, and only since then that the matter has been brought to my attention. I would therefore be obliged to the Honourable Minister if he would care to answer the following question: The Government of Manitoba will now pay for the books of all students of the province. Does this include the books of children now attending private and separate schools - when these books of course, are books approved by the Department of Education?
HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): The answer to the question, Mr. Speaker, is 'no.' The constitutional authority of the Province of Manitoba only extends to the public schools established under the Public Schools Act.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, that the House do now adjourn in order that a matter of great urgency and public interest be discussed, namely, the dangerous water level of Lake Manitoba.
MR. SPEAKER: Who is your seconder on this Motion?
MR. GUTTORMSON: The Honourable Member for St. Rose.
[Mr. Speaker read the motion. ]
MR. GUTTORMSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since 1950, the residents along Lake Manitoba have been plagued by serious flooding. The worst year being in 1955 when a great number of families were driven from their homes and a number had to sell their cattle because they were completely inundated. At least $2,000,000 damage was caused during this time, and even after the flood water began to recede, the land was completely useless because it had gone sour; and only this year were the farmers able to reclaim the thousands of acres which had been damaged by the waters from Lake Manitoba.
However, this year after the heavy rains, the lake level of Lake Manitoba has risen again. In the last reading, at the end of June, was 812.7. The land around the lake is rapidly going under water. Thousands of acres again are under water and many of the farmers have told me very recently that they will be unable to use this land this year as result of the water spreading inland. Although 812.7 is the official reading taken at Steep Rock, the level is far worse than that. Strong winds from the north and the south increase the level sometimes by a foot or more, and the water is driven inland for great distances and in many cases this water is unable to go back, even after the wind recedes. I know of many instances now where there is large tracts of land under a foot of water, and in many places the depths is even greater than that.
I have discussed this matter with the government authorities and the bone of contention with the people along the lake is the dam on the Fairford River. They feel that the logs in the dam should be removed in order that the water can come down again; and the government authorities feel that because the level of the lake hasn't reached the fluctuating level of 813 as recommended by the Commission that nothing should be done at this time. However, Mr. Speaker, I wish to point out that if we get another heavy rain, the level will surpass the fluctuating level of 813, and even then if the logs are removed, the Fairford River will not be able to cope with Lake Manitoba. When the Commission recommended these levels -- it fluctuates between 811 and 813 --
it was understood that flood controls would be put on the lake to maintain those levels. Work hasn't begun on those controls and the Fairford River as it is now can not possibly handle excessive water in Lake Manitoba.
I would urge this Government to take immediate steps to remove the logs in the Fairford River so that the water can gradually recede so that there is some hope of reclaiming much of the damaged land along the shores of Lake Manitoba. I am reuluctant to say this to the House, but so desperate are the men along the lake that if no action is taken, they have told me that they will go to the river themselves and remove the logs themselves. Now they realize that this would be against the law and they face possible prosecution if they do so; they are so desperate they're prepared to take the chances. So I would ask the House -- the government, to reconsider their previous decision to remove the logs from the Fairford dam so that these people can reclaim their land. They are paying taxes, they're paying hay leases along the shores of Lake Manitoba and this land is again being rendered useless. So I -- I just wanted to bring this matter to the attention of the House; only yesterday I had conversations with large groups of affected people from both sides of the lake and they're most anxious that the Government remove these logs.
MR. MOLGAT: ...even in my present weakened condition, I would like to add my words to those of the Honourable Member for St. George and endorse what he has said regarding Lake Manitoba.
It is true that when you look at the present figure of 812.7, which I think is the last reading, and you compare it to the long-term level of the Lake, the average of which was approximately 812, that this might appear to the authorities as not being a serious matter. In the case of Lake Manitoba, however, due to the orientation of the lake from northwest to southeast due to the fact that at the very centre of the lake -- the narrows, there is a constriction where it's only about a quarter of a mile across -- the wind effect is very serious on Lake Manitoba. And strong winds causes the water to go over the banks, get into the hay meadows and fields and stay there -- it does not get back into the lake. And this is the problem that is facing the farmers and ranchers around Lake Manitoba at this time. They're just in process of starting their haying operations these days, and they have just gone through in the past five years a very difficult period, and they greatly fear that unless something is done immediately with the Fairford Dam that they will be in for more trouble.
The Lake Manitoba report or the report, I should say, on Lake Winnipeg in Manitoba - the portion dealing with Lake Manitoba, speaks of maintaining a level between 811 and 813. But as the Honourable Member for St. George pointed out, 813 is the maximum figure in there and it is not the purpose - at least not my reading of it - that it should be kept near that level. And at present with the Fairford River in very poor condition so far as drainage is concerned, unless steps are taken long before it reaches 813, then there can be very serious trouble. So I certainly endorse what has been said by the member. I'm pleased that he brought this up at this stage. It is important right now due to the immediate haying operations, and unless something is done soon on the Fairford River with the very heavy rains that have occurred throughout the northern part of the province in the Lake Manitoba watershed area, there will be serious trouble developing. So I strongly urge the government to take immediate steps and remove the stop logs from the Fairford Dam.
The longer term project on the overall Fairford diversion channel, we discussed it here last year during our session -- the government indicated they, that they were going to take immediate steps to get the cost-benefit survey, and I'm hopeful that we will have a report on that soon and that work can be undertaken.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, referring to the motion by the Member for St. George and 'Poppa' Ste. Rose, may I say that as far as the river levels are concerned, we had a Commission advise us as to what would be the proper levels of that river. They said the levels should be between 810 and 813. They are now 812.7. Our engineers believe they're within the correct range, and also that no action should be taken until they reach 813 because that is the engineering level which they think is correct and safe.
It must be apparent to the House that if you get your water too low there, you have one group of people who are against it; if you get it too high, you have the other group of people against that level; and constantly there has been a struggle between these two groups. And so as best
they could in order to avoid it, the engineers and the Commission decided that they would fix a mean between which no changes would be made - that was 810 and 813. However, in order to satisfy the members and make sure that no serious harm is being done, I undertake to send an engineer there to have a look at it on the grounds to see whether in his opinion it's advisable to take out the stop logs or not.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, this is a subject of great importance and it's been frequently before the House. Part of my constituency borders on Lake Manitoba at the south end. I think that we get perhaps more effect there than any other similar distance of lakeshore caused by the pile-up of the water due to wind action. Unlike larger and deeper lakes, Lake Manitoba is so shallow that there is no room for an undertow, and the piling up effect of a long continued wind is much greater. And as the prevailing winds in summer time in the Province of Manitoba seem to be southwest, west and northwest, and the lake being slanted the way it is, it's the south-end and the east-side that seem to get the greatest difficulty of this pile-up effect.
Now the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture says that the engineers recommend a certain level - (incidentally, I think it's 811 to 813 rather than 810 to 813) - and that is quite right. But I'm sure, as the Honourable Members from St. George and St. Rose have both pointed out, that recommendation was on the belief that there would be the new works put into effect with a much greater capacity in the channel than now exists. And it's simply unrealistic to use the same height with regard to the present channel that is there, as if the new works that had been proposed had been already in place. And I'm positive from a long acquaintance with the action of that lake, that if the level is now up to 812.7, that no matter how quickly they remove the logs now, that there simply is not enough capacity there to take the lake down in time to prevent serious damage. The Honourable the Minister has said that he will send an engineer to see if the situation is causing damage. I can tell him that it has already caused damage, much damage. And in this case, he needs some of his agricultural people as well as his engineers. My honourable friend is a great man to depend on engineers; but there are places where agriculturalists are needed more than engineers; and this is land that is flooding where people are just getting back after some years of a complete loss of productivity.
And I think there should be no question about what should be done. This channel is not sufficient to carry the water now even with the stop logs out. As far as people worrying about the lower water, they are all quite prepared to have it go down a foot and a half or so from where it is now. Sure, there are those who don't want to see the water get too low, just as there are those who suffer from it being too high, but I'm quite sure that there would be no objection from the ones who like to keep a good substantial level of water there to immediate action being taken. And this is an urgent situation.
MR. A. E. CORBETT (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition made some comments about the Minister of Agriculture paying too much attention to the engineers. But regarding these lake levels - the condition such as we have had in the last few years - in the last few weeks - is going to create a rapid rise in the lake. Lake Manitoba has two main inlets, that is the Waterhen River and the Whitemud River, and also a great number of tributary creeks running into it. It has only the one outlet - the Fairford River - which in its present state doesn't take out any more water than the Waterhen brings in. Therefore, after heavy rains you get - with the augmented flow into the lake from various sources all around the lake, you get a rise in water levels. And you cannot get away from that when we get abnormal rains, and nature pays very little attention to man's endeavours in that particular regard. She sends the water down faster than the normal outlets can take it away as the inlets deliver it. And I don't think - for myself, I agree with the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition that taking out the stop logs won't make the slightest bit of difference in the present flooding; it may quicken the lowering of the lake slightly in the next few weeks - few days or weeks. But if the inlets are running at full ... and it continues raining, they're going to have flooding in those areas around there that flood at 812 level. And no matter what the Royal Commission says about restraining those levels between 811 and 813, it just can't be done no matter how big you make the outlets unless you make an outlet that is out of all proportion that would drain the lake dry in a week or so.
And the fishermen have their trouble on there - they don't want that water level too low. And if you are going to protect all the haylands around Lake Manitoba, and that applies to Lake
Winnipegosis and Lake Winnipeg, you must go in for a system of dyking and protecting those lands from the action of winds and the abnormal rains at sometime. And discussing this matter is a matter of urgency, it's urgent as far as those farmers whose haylands are being flooded. But, there is nothing - I was going to say nothing in God's world - but I'm afraid that might not be parliamentary - that you can do about it as long as it continues raining and the water keeps coming in. And if we make outlets that are going to absolutely keep between that 811 and 813 level, it wouldn't be practical; we would have to have an outlet at least a half a mile wide and take out all the obstructions in the rapids in the Fairford River, which is not practical.
Therefore, it's either a case in Manitoba here, or on Lake Manitoba of assuming that in certain years you will have losses of hayland there; or else you will have to take tremendous steps towards dyking and protecting that lake, because even if the water level gets down to 809, you can still get an abnormal wind condition which will flood a lot of meadows in those areas. And, in my opinion, these farmers who depend entirely on lands which must be below the 812 level or they wouldn't flood, you are always going to have trouble with them, unless you are prepared to not only enlarge the outlet to the lake, try and check the inlets and create a condition which is far from normal to protect certain lands in there, but the only way you can protect them is, as I say, by dyking them, if you consider that those lands are worth the effort to probably save one crop out of three or four or five. Thank you.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I just raise the question before the other honourable member speaks. I would like to ask the Honourable Member for Swan River if it isn't a fact though that seeing that there is a channel there, and that it, at least partially stopped up with the stop logs in place, isn't it at least realistic to have those stop logs removed so as to give whatever advantage they can give to the flooding?
MR. CORBETT: I thought I mentioned that when I spoke - that if the stop logs were taken out, definitely that's a good idea - but it will not, by taking all the stop logs out of that river at the present time, it will not cause the farmers to be able to get on to their land next week to cut hay.
MR. CAMPBELL: It will help.
MR. P. WAGNER (Fisher): Mr. Speaker, I just rise to pass on some information. I was down to a Farmers' Union District Convention on June 25th, in Fisher Branch, which is that area contained from Winnipeg Beach right across to Oak Point and it covers the whole farm union members in that district. And the farmers were out from Lake Manitoba and they were very much concerned. They even discussed it in the Convention, that the water rise is flooding their land and they were expecting that something could be done in the way of alleviating the situation, and in the discussion somebody mentioned me -- that the member for Fisher is here in attendance -- and those people afterwards approached me whether anything could be done or whether I knew anything the government is going to do to alleviate that situation. I just want to pass this remark to the honourable members what the situation is according to the knowledge of myself.
But anyhow, what the outcome was in the Convention - the very next day the Farmers' Union Board was to present a Brief to the government and they did select a man from that area and he was supposed to bring that item to the Agricultural Minister. But what I want, to stress the importance that there is damage done and if nothing is going to be done, I would suggest, or if it's not possible to do anything to these farmers, I would suggest that the government has to use some form of compensation for these farmers, or move them away or pay them the damages, because they have to make a living. And this is just what I wanted to remark on it, Mr. Speaker, that the farmers were there present at that Convention and they are really in a critical position.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the House, I'll withdraw my motion.
MR. SPEAKER: ...leave of the House to withdraw the motion? Motion withdrawn. The Committee of the Whole House.
MR. D. M. STANES (St. James): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Honourable Member from Brandon, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee to consider the following bills: Bill No. 49 - An Act to amend the Brandon Charter, in the name of the Honourable Member from Brandon; Bill No. 58 - An Act respecting the Town of Steinbach in the
name of the Honourable Member from Carillon; Bill No. 70 - An Act to authorize the Town of Dauphin to make a grant to the Dauphin General Hospital, in the name of the Honourable Member from Roblin; Bill No. 71 - An Act to authorize the Rural Municipality of Dauphin to make a grant to the Dauphin General Hospital, in the name of the Honourable Member from Roblin.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried and asked the Honourable Member for St. Matthews to take the Chair.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 49, Secton (1) 6 (a)
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I'm not a member of the Municipal Committee and I didn't have the advantage of hearing a discussion there. Might I ask if there was any opposition to this Bill?
MR. STANES: Mr. Chairman, there was one change made and that was that the rate of interest be increased from 5 1/2% to 6 1/4%. That is the only change.
MR. CAMPBELL: No opposition to the Bill in addition to that?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Section 2, Section 3-E, Section 4, Section 5, 491 - (1) as amended.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, is that the section where the interest rate change occurs?
MR. STANES: That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like once again to point out to the Committee it applies to this Bill, and I believe it applies also to two of the other bills that we're going to deal with -- the Bill 70 and 71. I would like to once again draw to the attention of the Committee the adverse affects on municipalities and the likes of hospital boards, of the ever spiralling interest rates in the Province of Manitoba and in the Dominion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 491 - (2)
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I agree with my honourable friend completely in that remark that he just made about the ever spiralling rates of interest and their affects upon governmental bodies, but I wonder if he wouldn't agree with me also that one of the greatest factors in causing that is the continued and continuing increase of expenditures by government?
MR. PAULLEY: Well, I won't quite agree with my honourable friend, Mr. Chairman. I do think that the basis for increasing rates of interest in Canada lay clearly at the doorstep of the Federal Minister of Finance -- started with the conversion loans a year or so ago.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 491 - (3), 4, 5, Section 6, Preamble, Title. The Bill be reported. Bill No. 58 - (1), 2, Preamble, Title, Bill be reported. Bill No. 71 - (2) as amended; 3
MR. CAMPBELL: What Bill, Mr. Speaker?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 70.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, isn't there a -- oh! Yes, it's here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 4
MR. W. C. MILLER (Rhineland): What was the amendment, Mr. Chairman? The change in the interest rate?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes -- 6 1/4. 5.
MR. CAMPBELL: What was the change, Mr. Chairman? What was the change in interest rate?
MR. CHAIRMAN: 6 and 6 1/4.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I understand there was some discussion on section 4. Correct?
A MEMBER: That's right, there was. Agreed to as ... by the Committee.
MR. CAMPBELL: Agree to on division? Is that correct? [Interjection] I'd simply wish to record myself as being opposed to the section 4 in principle. I don't intend to make any motion regarding it at this stage of the development, but unless there's mighty good reasons for it, I don't think it's a good practice.
MR. K. ALEXANDER (Roblin): Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to point out that there was a motion on Section 4 and that the present section as in the Bill was upheld, with only 4 opposing votes in Committee.
MR. CAMPBELL: Count me the fifth one.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Section 5. Section 6, preamble, title. Bill be reported. Bill No. 71, section 1. Section 2 as amended, that was the same as there - 6 and 6 1/4. Section 3, Section 4.
MR. CAMPBELL: Same disclaimer as far as I'm concerned, Mr. Speaker - Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Section 5. Section 6, preamble, title. Bill be reported. The Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker.
MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered certain Bills, No. 49, No. 58, No. 70, No. 71 and directed me to report the same without amendment, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital, that the Report of the Committee be received.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.]
[Mr. Stanes presented Bill No. 49 - an Act to Amend the Brandon Charter for third reading.]
[Mr. Miller presented Bill No. 58 - an Act Respecting the Town of Steinbach, for third reading.]
[Mr. Alexander presented Bill No. 70, an Act to Authorize the Town of Dauphin to make a Grant to the Dauphin General Hospital, for third reading.]
[Mr. Alexander presented Bill No. 71, an Act to Authorize the Rural Municipality of Dauphin to make a Grant to the Dauphin General Hospital, for third reading.]
MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister for second reading of Bill No. 35. The Honourable Member for Selkirk.
MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Honourable the First Minister, I think it would be advisable to have this matter stand until he returns.
MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 3. The Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities.
HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utilities) (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Provincial Secretary, that Bill No. 3, an Act to Amend the Highway Traffic Act, be now read a second time.
[Mr. Speaker put the question.]
MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, there're three parts to this Bill. The first part sets up the Highway Safety Board, whose responsibility it will be to hear appeals from suspensions of driving privileges or Motor Vehicle Registrations under sections 115 and 134 of the Highway Traffic Act. Section 115 of the Highway Traffic Act is an automatic suspension which results from a conviction under section 222 and 223 of the Criminal Code of Canada. These sections deal with convictions for driving while impaired and driving while intoxicated. And the automatic suspension which is provided under Section 115 of the Highway Traffic Act, is that for a first offence for driving while impaired or intoxicated they're suspended for a period of six months. If there is an injury, a death or property damage in excess of $100.00, then the period of suspension is automatically 12 months instead of the six months period. Now, under a second conviction, the suspension is for 12 months or if there is an injury in excess of $100.00 or personal injury or death, then the suspension will be for 2 years. And on a third conviction the period is for one year or -- and after -- I'm sorry. For a third offence it's automatically a life suspension under this section. It also deals with care and control of a vehicle which means the person is not necessarily driving, but he's sitting in a vehicle when he's impaired or intoxicated - and the suspensions under this section are just half of the suspensions under the first part. In other words, three months for first offence, six months for second offence and life suspension for anything over the second suspension.
I heard of a case today which to me points out the advisability of an appeal board of this kind. I heard about a man who had been an employee for over 12 years with one company. He had a perfect driving record over a period of some 20 years and on one occasion he went out and had an accident after he'd had a drink and was convicted under the Criminal Code, and the property damage was in excess of $100.00, and this individual had his license suspended for one year. The result of this suspension was that this man lost his job. He is a family man and I would like to point out that the hardship created in this case is greater than the hardship which would be created if an individual did not require his -- the use of his vehicle in his job as this man did.
Now, under section 134 of the Highway Traffic Act we have the suspensions which arise as the result of the Registrar of Motor Vehicle Licenses suspending under the authority which was granted in this Act. Now I'd just like to read the first portion of this section so that the House
will see and the new members will see the wide powers which are given to the Registrar. Section 134 - I'm just going to read subsection (1). "In addition to every other provision or cause for cancellation or suspension of a license or registration the Registrar, upon failure of a driver or owner to comply with any requirement of this Act or for any other reasonable cause, may cancel or suspend the license of, or refuse to issue a license to any driver, and cancel or suspend the registration of any motor vehicle registered in the name of any person or refuse to permit such a registration to be made by any person etiher absolutely or until the person gives proof of financial responsibility." Now, following that, of course, you will see that anyone who is suspended under this section does have recourse to the County Court - the Court of Appeal, but over the years the number who have taken this recourse have been very small. I think the number over the last eight years has been at the rate of about eight to ten per year, so you'll see that there are very few who take advantage of this provision in the Act - I believe largely because of the complications which are involved. He must seek legal counsel and go to the Courts and it's certainly not an easy procedure for the individual.
Now normally the way in which a person has his driving privileges suspended is in our program, of course, for eliminating dangerous drivers from our highways, and I think the House will all be familiar with the point system which is in use in this province. An individual normally when he receives 6 points, which is the equivalent of three convictions for speeding or failing to stop at a stop sign or things of that nature, is called in for re-examination. He has his normal driver test, the road test, the vision test, the knowledge of the Highway Traffic Act. After this he is put on a period of probation which may be 12 months, and in some cases it may of course be a longer period. If, during this period of suspension, he has one further moving traffic violation, then he is called in to show cause why his license should not be suspended, and if there are extenuating circumstances at that time, he may then not be suspended. But if he is suspended, then it may be for a period of one week to one month for the first offence, and then he's called in at the end of that time. He must make application in person and may actually be required to have an additional driver's test after which he is put on a period of probation once again.
Now this Appeal Board merely makes the procedure a little easier for the individual to state his case before an impartial body, and this Appeal Board is charged with the responsibility of judging whether there are exceptional circumstances and if there are, and only if there are, then he may be granted a reinstatement of his privileges or a partial reinstatement of his driving privileges and his motor vehicle registration. They must also be convinced that this reinstatement will be in the public interest. We feel that this will relieve any undue hardship which may result from suspensions under either of these two sections of the Act.
Now, the other part of the Act deals with the setting up of a board which is called the Highway Traffic and Co-ordinating Board. It will be the function of this board to set speed zones and approve speed zones which are passed by municipal by-law; for approving lighting and signalling equipment and other equipment that goes on motor vehicles; and also for passing traffic control devices; and we hope that they will be of great assistance in reviewing possible changes in the Highway Traffic Act and things of that kind. Now this Board, we expect, will be made up largely of technical people employed by governments or municipalities - people who have a responsibility in the enforcement field or who deal with motor traffic in one way or another. We feel that there will be representatives on this board of people from the Department of Public Works who are familiar with the highways and the way they affect traffic; possibly a member of the Department of Public Utilities, somebody possibly from the Attorney-General's Department,; possibly a member of the R.C.M.P. representing rural enforcement; representation possibly from the City of Winnipeg Police Traffic Enforcement Department; probably somebody from the Traffic Department who deal with the movement of traffic, the traffic control devices and traffic flows in the City of Winnipeg. There may also be representatives from The Bar Association, Insurance Companies, Manitoba Motor League, Manitoba Motor Transit, and people such as that, but certainly people who have an interest in traffic control and it will be their function to rule on these things. Now one thing I would like to mention at this time is that these people are granted such power as may be given to it under this Act, and at the present time, because we're not bringing in the other amendments to our Highway Traffic Act, this board will really have no responsibility until such time as the other changes are made in the Highway Traffic Act. But the Bill has been set up in this way and we would like to see it go through in this form and this
section of the Act can be proclaimed when the other amendments of the Highway Traffic Act are put through.
Now the last section of this Act deals with fees for motor vehicles, for trucks and trailers, PSV's and CT licenses, for weights which were allowed with the changes in the Act in 1956, however at that time they neglected to place in the Act the amended schedule of fees to take care of the larger weights that were provided for at that time. We think that it's an excellent idea that we are using large transports on our highways because it makes for the more efficient flow of merchandise, makes for lower consumer cost, and makes for benefits for manufacturing industries situated locally. These are the three sections of the Act and that's about all I can say about it at the moment.
MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the only reservation I have regarding this Act is in respect of Section 115 of the Highway Traffic Act. I've always felt that Section 115 shouldn't be in the Highway Traffic Act, that is, the automatic suspension by the Registrar in filing with him a certificate of conviction under Section 222 or 223 of the Criminal Code. And I think by reason of the fact that section is in the Highway Traffic Act a great number of the Police Magistrates in Manitoba have not exercised the discretion which was vested in them under Section 225 of the Criminal Code. Under that section, where a person is convicted of driving while intoxicated or while impaired or being in control of a motor vehicle while intoxicated or impaired, the Magistrate of the Court or the Judge have power to suspend that person's driving privileges in Canada for varying periods; if death resulted as a result of the offence, for whatever period the Court Judge or Magistrate decided; and if death did not result, for a period of not more than three years. Now I feel that if Section 115 were taken out of our Highway Traffic Act and did away with the automatic suspension by the Registrar on the filing of a certificate of conviction, the Magistrate and the Courts and the Judge of this province would exercise the discretion vested in them under Section 225 of the Criminal Code, and by reason of their exercising that discretion, there would be no need to have an Appeal Board hear any appeals from Registrar suspensions under Section 115.
I also feel too, Mr. Speaker, that in most instances where a person is charged with an offence under Section 222 or 223 of the Criminal Code, they're represented by counsel. All the facts are put before the case - all the facts and circumstances surrounding the offence, the Attorney-General is represented there, and if the Magistrate decides to exercise the discretion vested in him of cancelling the license, he can hear what representations are then made both by the Attorney-General's Department and by counsel for the accused. In addition to that he has the benefit of having before him the man's record and he has the benefit, too, of having before him the R.C.M.P. officers who conducted the investigation resulting in the charge being laid, and he can get all the facts and circumstances necessary upon which to make a proper and just adjudication on whether or no that man's license should be suspended. In additon to that the man himself, it he feels aggrieved by the decision of the Court, he has the right of appeal. It seems to me that what we should do is take Section 115 out of our Highway Traffic Act and let the Court's Judges and Magistrates of this province exercise the discretion which has been given to them under Section 225 of the Criminal Code.
I understand that in certain jurisdictions - I know the City of Winnipeg used to do it and I don't know whether they still do it or not, but I understand that in certain jurisdictions, and if I'm wrong the Attorney-General can correct me, including the City of Winnipeg, the Magistrate does exercise the discretion under Section 225, but in most of our rural courts they do not. I feel that this is a discretion which should be properly left with the Magistrate because he has all the facts and circumstances before him upon which to make a proper ajudication. And speaking as a member, I also feel that if this Safety Board is set up and Section 115 still remains in the Highway Traffic Act and the Magistrates and Judges and Courts of Manitoba do not exercise the discretion vested in them under Section 225 of the Criminal Code, that as a member, and that will include all the other members of this House, you're going to have one terrible headache.
So I feel, Mr. Speaker, that apart from the Appeal Board dealing with Section 115 of the Highway Traffic Act, which I feel should be taken out of the Act, I have no objection to the Bill going for second reading, but I do have these reservations respecting the hearing of appeals by that board from convictions under the Criminal Code. I think that these matters are more effectively and more properly left in the hands of the Court and giving the Magistrate the discretion,
of the Judge of the Court the discretion which has been vested in them under the Federal Statues.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to say a word or two in connection with this Bill. We're particularly interested in the fact that it appears now that there will be a sort of a Court of Appeal set up which does not seem to necessitate anyone who has received a conviction of going before a County Court Judge or Appeal Judges, and thereby may alleviate the financial responsibility of legal process with a number of individuals. I hope that due publicity will be given to this section to anyone who may have their license suspended by the Registrar in order that they may take advantage of it. Now, I don't know off-hand whether or not the Appeal Board or the Highway Safety Board will still be insistent as is Section 134 of the proof of financial responsibility. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that that is one of the difficulties that many people or persons have after an accident occurs, or after suspension. And of course as is well known, we of our group have proposed that that financial responsibility should be an onus beforehand or onus on taking out a license plate. However, I would like some clarification from the Minister of Public Utilities in respect of that. Will the Safety Board have the rights of overruling the Registrar insofar as safety responsibility or financial responsibility is concerned?
We're also interested to some degree, Mr. Speaker, in the sections dealing with the new schedule of rates. Now I can well appreciate the fact that the former or present schedules only deal with certain motor vehicles having up to a gross combined weight of 54,000 pounds in respect of Table No. 3. I wonder whether the rates only went up that high because that was generally considered the maximum gross weight of the vehicles that were in use on our highways at that particular time? I notice under the sections in the Act that it is permissible for a total gross weight of 72,000 pounds for which the new schedule is going to cover. I think it would be interesting, Mr. Speaker, to the House, to know from the Minister how many vehicles are going to be affected with the new license rates over the 54,000 pounds? It seems to me as I drive, and I'm not speaking, Sir, at the present time as a railroader but as a motor vehiclist, it seems to me that the size and weight of our motor vehicles is ever on the increase and, as a result, I'm convinced considerable highway damage is being done as a result. I also would like to know from the Minister how may Class A highways we have in the province that can stand vehicles of 72,000 pounds. Also, I'd like to know how this applies to municipalities because I can appreciate the fact that some of our highways, and I have in mind 75 particularly, where these vehicles would not have much effect due to the type of construction, but what happens insofar as the municipalities are concerned bordering the highway of the likes? If a license is issued for the 72,000 pounds to go over a Class A highway, does it automatically mean that that particular vehicle can go through our municipal streets? And while I realize that our municipalities have the right under the Highway Traffic Act to restrict weight and also to designate routes for vehicles in the streets of the municipality, how does this all tie in with the increased allowances, or increased license fees?
One other point, it seems to me, and of course the Minister possibly explained that, Mr. Speaker, in dealing with the new board, that many of the present provisions of the Highway Traffic Act will have to be changed due to different jurisdictions within the Act insofar as signs and the likes of that are concerned. And I would suggest that just as soon as this new board, the Highway Traffic & Co-ordination Board is set up, that immediately on it's being set up, that it give consideration to invoking the provisions made previously in this Legislature to allow modified speed zones. If I recall correctly, legislation permitting that was passed in 1954, or '55 and we are still finding that we go along the highway at 60 miles an hour, and then within a few feet from there we are told that we have to slacken off to 30 miles an hour, which I'm sure is an inconvenience to all motorists and particularly to those coming from jurisdictions which at the present time have modified speed zones. That's all I care to say at this present time in connection with this Bill, Mr. Speaker. On second reading we may have other comments to make -- or at committee.
MR. J. M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I think that the changes that are being suggested in this Bill is something that the general public has long awaited for - there is no question in my mind. I think a year or two ago when I was in Law Amendments Committee, not a Law Amendments but a committee where some appeals were made on behalf of certain people who were involved, and this one particular case that was mentioned at the time was a man who
had worked for many, many years as a truckdriver and had an infraction and had actually lost his job.
I would like to ask the Minister several questions: First - in other words, any appeals that would be made would be left entirely to the discretion of the Appeal Board. That is true, is it, that any appeals would be left to the discretion of the Appeal Board in handing down any decision? I presume there is a cost involved and does it necessarily mean that the appeal made on behalf of the convicted person, does he have to apply through a lawyer or can he do it on his own? And also, can you tell me, Sir, whether you are contemplating a backlog? How far back can these appeals go - within six months, a year or two years?
MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question?
HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, in speaking to one point raised by the Honourable Member from Selkirk, I think he will recall as well as myself that in days gone by, of course the magistrates did have the discretionary power to suspend licenses for convictions for impaired or intoxicated driving, and he will recall as well as I do that we used to have suspensions ranging from two days to two years in some instances. And of course the former government, in it's wisdom, a government of course of which he was a member, saw fit to bring in Section 115 which brought uniformity right across the whole picture, that is which made it not a condition of the sentence but a statutory condition that a man convicted of one or the other of these offenses, under the circumstances stated in the Act, would receive a uniform suspension regardless of the circumstances under which the conviction was registered. Now to the extent that I believe in the good magistracy which we have in Manitoba, and to the extent which I believe in the equity which they can dispense and do dispense every day through their courts, I agree with it. But I would say this, that at the present time he is as well aware as anyone in the House that what is needed is the injection of equity into the statutory conditions. We find now persons being suspended for three months, six months or twelve months, and in cases as mentioned by my colleague, it means a loss of income for them in some cases and in other cases a loss of a job entirely. The effect on their family and on their children is much beyond what it was ever the intention of the legislature to impose. And I think that this is a step back to the point where we were before where there can be an injection of equity into these proceedings.
The honourable member raised the point about the accused being represented by counsel when they appear to plead guilty or to contest their cases when they are charged with impaired or intoxicated driving. I can say that in some five to six years of experience prosecuting that the number of persons who appeared before court represented by counsel in these cases was much smaller than the number who were unrepresented. I always remember, of course that when they were represented by the Honourable Member for Selkirk, I had a very great deal of difficulty in getting a conviction but, unfortunately, not always were counsels of his calibre available to the accused person. It is a fact and a fact which we must take cognizance of, that a good number of persons come before the courts not knowing what their rights are; a good number of persons come before the courts pleading guilty to impaired or intoxicated driving and they have no idea in the world that their driving privileges are going to be suspended. And of course we, as lawyers, can say that that's quite all right because they are presumed to know what the law is, and of course that's what the courts say. But notwithstanding that, I think we are all now aware that there has been creeping into this system a feeling of inequity among the public and I think that this is a good step, a good move, because it will have the effect of permitting persons whether they be represented or unrepresented appearing before a board which will hear their representations as to whether or not the statutory condition should be implemented as the Act says. It will have this additional effect as well, that whatever equity is dispensed by this board will be dispensed on a uniform basis, that is, you won't have a magistrate in the City of Winnipeg suspending for two weeks and a magistrate in the City of Brandon suspending for two months as a matter of course. And we all know rightly or wrongly magistrates, being human, sometimes come to adopt a "rule of thumb" on these matters, and of course they hear evidence and they break their own "rules of thumb" occasionally. But by and large we know that if there is a minimum and a maximum, the magistrates by and large will favour the minimum. The fine, for instance, on impaired driving is $50.00 to $500.00. I daresay that 75% of the fines imposed in Manitoba are $50.00, and I don't say
that that's wrong. I say it is a good thing because the magistrate in his own discretion is imposing the punishment that he thinks best fits the case. But I do suggest that this plan is well worth trying because, first of all, it will bring back into this question of suspension of driving privileges the factor of equity which has been missing. Secondly, it will bring back in a uniform way so that a person, regardless of whether he lives in Flin Flon, Brandon, Winnipeg, East Braintree or whatever part of the province he is in, will be assured that when he goes before this board, the board will be dealing with him on the same basis as the board dealt with a number of other applicants who appeared before it the day before, and so on.
And so while I don't entirely disagree with him on the question of leaving this matter to the discretion of the magistrates, I do say that this plan is well worth trying. I do subscribe to this plan most heartily and I do so because we had the plan which the honourable member suggests - we had it in effect some time ago and we all knew that there were imperfections in it, it apparently in some cases was not having the deterrent effect that was desired. I think this plan is well worth trying and then if in the wisdom of experience we see that there are errors or there are other faults creeping into the system, why then I think we will have to go back and review just exactly what he has suggested to us today. In the meantime, I think we should support this Bill.
MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the questions which were raised by the Honourable the Leader of the C.C.F. Party, he was asking about proof of financial responsibility which I'm afraid does not come under either of the two sections which we are including in this Bill as being those which can be appealed before the Highway Safety Board. The section that the Leader of the C.C.F. Party is referring to - at least the section under which those cancellations of driving privileges and registrations are made, come under Section 133 - 133 (3), I believe it is. Just turn back to 133, subsection (3), I believe it is.
Now the schedule of rates that this Act brings into effect are only those rates and fees which are presently being charged by the board under regulations at the present time. As you know, in 1956 the weight restrictions were raised on our highways to the point where maximum allowable weights of 72,000 lbs. were brought into effect. This is very much in line with most of the other provinces in the Dominion. For instance, British Columbia has 72,000 lbs.; Alberta, 62,000; Ontario has 70,000 lbs. The one exception to this is our neighbourly Province of Saskatchewan which allows only 56,000 lbs. on Trans-Canada and I think, 45,000 lbs. on other highways. This has the effect of a narrow gauge railway in a trans-continental system where the loads can't be transported across the province without dumping some of the loads. We are pleased also to announce that the Minister of Public Works has just recently announced a number of highways on which 72,000 lbs. maximum weights are allowed. We feel that this is in line with our policy of building better roads and making transportation cheaper to the people of Manitoba, allowing them the benefits of lower costs of transportation and so on. [Interjection] I think, if you would care to consult with the Minister in charge, I'm sure he would be very pleased to inform you of that.
Well, the cost of the appeals - there will be a cost and we feel that the charges for this service will pay for the expenses involved in providing this service to the public. Now the actual hearing fee has not been determined at the present time but it will be decided and it will be passed by Order-in-Council. Now in the wisdom of the Appeal Board, it will also be within their power to recommend that this fee be returned to the applicant if they feel that it is in the public interest and if there are extenuating circumstances which would suggest that the fee be remitted.
Now one other point that came up was - what time will be allowed for the appeals? Appeals can be made before this board within six months of the passage of the Bill which means that anybody who is presently under a one-year suspension, or life suspension, or six months suspension can apply within six months of the passage of this Bill and have a hearing before the Appeal Board. Subsequent to that, after any cancellation an individual has the right to appeal within six months of the suspension. Now this, of course, does not rule out a further appeal from the decision of the Appeal Board to the Court of Appeal. That recourse is still available to anyone who feels aggrieved by the decision of this Appeal Board.
[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.]
MR. SPEAKER: Committee of Supply.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and asked the Honourable Member for St. Matthews to take the Chair.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: ... Agriculture and Conservation - 1(a).
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated just before we rose on Friday night, I had some general remarks to make on this item. I would be quite willing to wait though in case the Honourable the Minister wanted to either answer any of the questions that have been asked or make a further statement, I don't know.
MR. WILLIS: Go right ahead.
MR. CAMPBELL: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would have preferred if it had been possible to have delayed these remarks until I had had the opportunity of looking at the text of the remarks made by the Honourable the Minister. That wasn't possible because the Hansard of Friday evening was just laid on our desk today, so I'll have to depend on the notes that I took at that time, and if at any place I'm inaccurate, I'm sure that my honourable friend will issue a correction. We now have Hansard where we can check on exactly just what was said.
Similarly, I would have been pleased to have this 1958 Progress Report on Agriculture Research and I haven't had time to look at it, but I appreciate the fact that the Honourable the Minister has brought it down now because we will have it before us to consult in connection with the further items.
Now the first note that I made with regard to my honourable friend's general remarks was on the question of long-term credit, and the Minister was pretty proud, apparently, of the act and the administration that they're building up under that act for the provision of farm credit. Well, there again the proof, I think, will be in the experience that we have and I am quite willing to wait and see what happens. He referred to the farm loans of many years ago as being a colossal failure. I don't know whether that is justified or not, perhaps it is, certainly it lost a lot of money to the taxpayers themselves, but I guess no one will ever know just how much money it may have saved to the farmers in the way of holding down interest rates from what they would otherwise have been. The fact is that that act came into effect at a time of extremely high prices just when World War I was on and the prices both for agricultural products and the goods and services used in agriculture were both going up very quickly, and a sort of inflationary tendency was in evidence then with the difference at that time as compared to now that while costs were going up, the prices of agricultural products were going up too. Whatever mistakes were made there, and I think one of them was that the people who had the administration of that act were too optimistic -- they certainly put out a lot of money and I think they took some loans that were not too secure, and while I couldn't class it as a colossal failure as my honourable friend has, it certainly was not a success in my opinion.
I think that my honourable friend in the administration of his act is very wise to at least pay attention to what happened on that occasion. Certainly he doesn't seem to be moving in the way that they did, of getting the loans out very fast, because after telling us all during their campaign a year ago and then the time of the House when it sat last October that it was going to be put into effect immediately, we find now that we have only 71 loans approved, and I think we can at least give the Minister credit for being very cautious.
Now he mentioned as well that the Federal Government seems to have taken some note of what this government has done. Well, that was probably said facetiously -- I'm not sure -- but certainly the Federal Government, the one that is in office now, was promising farm credit and reformed and extended farm credit just as soon as my honourable friends who now form the government of this province. So far as I am concerned, my complaint is not against farm credit as such. It was and still is against the duplication of effort by the Federal Government and the Provincial Government. I see no reason in the world why the Federal Government could not have extended its plan, and it has done it or is now proposing to do it to some extent, and why it couldn't have made, in Manitoba, the kind of loans that are needed by the Province of Manitoba, and the duplication that undoubtedly exists between these two farm loans organization could have been avoided. I am still of that opinion. I don't think that anything that has happened to date gives me any reason to change it. But I will be prepared to watch pretty carefully what happens in the future, and if this turns out to be as good as my honourable friend seems to expect it to be, then I'll be prepared to at least revise my opinion.
Then the Honourable the Minister gave us quite a dissertation on the fact that there's been, in the past, a lot of bad land use. Well, no doubt there has and there'll be a lot of it in the future, I guess, because this is one of the things that just seems to happen. It's very
difficult to get even the good farmers of the Province of Manitoba to do all of the things that the so-called experts think are proper in the way of land use. But as well as land use itself, the Minister went on to discuss land settlement. And as I noted his words, he said that there were places where a few people lived and struggled and sometimes starved to death and that the governments who, in the past, had sold those people lands, perhaps for $1.00 an acre or something of that order, had certainly conferred no favour upon them. And then he went on to say, I presume speaking of those people, that they should be taken off the land and put on better land. Now that, in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, represents a common fallacy that a lot of people have about the use of land. Just because land isn't of the same quality as that that exists right around Boissevain or Elgin or Dauphin or Portage la Prairie, or some of these other places, it does not mean that it isn't good land to be settled and used. A lot of this land that was sold for $1.00 -- yes, even for a dollar an acre in the early days and in the more recent days, because some of it happened quite recently, has been an excellent investment for the people involved.
A lot of this land in the Interlake that my honourable friend the Minister pays a good bit of attention to, a lot of that land that is called by many people as sub-marginal land is, in fact, good land for the purposes for which they use it, and that is the acid test, is the use that is made of the land. And I say to my honourable friend that when he says there has been in the past a lot of bad land use, there has been and there still is a lot of very good use of land that is not up to the quality for cultural purposes of the best land in Manitoba. Because if you have land, as you have a great deal of it up in the Interlake country, if you have land that will raise good cattle and produce lots of milk, the milk for fluid milk consumption in the City of Winnipeg here, and the steers to be sold on the livestock market here as stocker and feeder steers rather than finishing them, that's a good use for that land to be put to. And land sold to people who are already making a good living out of livestock, land sold to them at $1.00 an acre is certainly conferring a favour on them.
There is too much of a tendency by a lot of people to suggest that this land is not pulling its weight and that the people on it should be moved some place else. They do not need to be moved any place, they're doing fine where they are. And that ties in as well with the other suggestion that the Honourable the Minister made about the reputation of our beef cattle not being up to scratch. When you have that kind of land, low-priced land, perhaps stony but that will grow good grass, the people there, as a matter of course, cannot cultivate much of that land, cannot grow very much grain; and they don't finish their cattle in the way that a lot of others do; but they can make a very excellent contribution to the overall livestock situation and to their own profits by growing them up to the stocker and feeder stage and selling them on the market. When people talk as though all of the stock that's going to be sold on the livestock market here in Winnipeg, or Brandon or any other centre, should all be of the top quality, that just isn't possible, Mr. Chairman. And it's particularly not possible in an area where we have a huge concentration of population like we have in Greater Winnipeg here where there will always be a great demand for fluid milk, and that, in turn, tends to concentrate the commercial dairy herds in an area adjacent to that large centre of population; and that in turn means that there is annually quite a number of the dairy-type cattle that have to be marketed through the year. When you take the numbers of dairy type cattle that must be marketed some place, and the cattle that come from these areas that a lot of folks want to call sub-marginal, you're going to find that in spite of all the good plans that my honourable friend or any of the staff have, that you'll always have a considerable number of that type of cattle coming forward. And when you've got that type of production on that type of land by people that know their business, and the most of the ones who are in it do know their business, there is nothing wrong with the situation in my opinion, and goodness knows, nobody needs to be talking about moving them off on to other lands.
Then my honourable friend is very optimistic of the fact that because the department is now going to have a large increase in staff that he is going to have more experts to tell these people, and others, the proper use of their lands; that the people won't need to waste their lives trying to produce the things they can't produce. Mr. Chairman, if there is any one of the departments where I have perhaps a little more respect for the experts than the other departments, the one I would put at the top, I think, would be agriculture. But even those experts can't tell the most of our farmers a great deal about how to run their business. It is true that getting the
information out to them from the research and the experimental farms and the other places are very useful and the farmers are increasingly aware of that and increasingly ready to take advantage of it. But do you know, I've given a lot of thought to this question through the years and I am convinced of this, Mr. Chairman, that generally speaking, and of course there are many exceptions, but generally speaking, the farmers of Manitoba already know better how to farm than they are able to farm because of economic conditions and that has been their plight through a great proportion of the years that I have been very close to them. They have known better how to farm than they have been able to farm because of economic conditions, and what is needed on the farm more than anything else is not more experts to tell them what to do, but it's something to be done to improve their financial position; and Farm Credit is no use to them, no use whatever, unless you first get the cost-price squeeze adjusted. Because if you don't get the situation so that they're going to be making a profit out of the expansion that the Farm Credit makes possible, they'll only be worse by getting a lot of Farm Credit. The thing to do is rehabilitate the economic situation first and the farmers will look after the rest. Now I'm not -- I'm not at all decrying the contribution that the experts can make. They can do very, very well in their own sphere, but you've simply got to depend on the farmer himself to put those practices into effect.
My honourable friend told us that we now have people properly trained in weed control. Now I may not be quoting him exactly there and I may be taking a wrong impression out of that, but I can tell him that we've had people properly trained in weed control for many years in this province and have been doing something about it. Manitoba has had the best weed control program, in my opinion, of any province in Canada; perhaps it would not be extending it too far to say better than any adjoining state of the Union as well. We've had people who are properly trained, and of course there is progress being made in that field of endeavour just the same as there is in other fields of endeavour. It is not a static situation and of course we want to keep up with what is new, but according to what has been the approved methods through the years, we've had people properly trained and doing the very best of work in agriculture, always in co-operation with the person who is the most important of all, and that is the farmer on his own land.
The Minister mentioned that last year at a gathering of cerealists here in this city, they were able to see 500 different varieties of wheat from all parts of the world out here at our own institution. I can't pay too high a tribute to two groups of people that are out there. Mr. Chairman, through the years the cerealists and the plant breeders have both done a marvelous job and the rust-researchers, the disease specialists all the way through, have done just as good. We can't, this government, either the former one or the present one, can't take the major share of credit for that because it is largely a work of the Federal Government; but the Province of Manitoba and the Department of Agriculture has always co-operated fully with them and they've done an excellent job, and the farmers have been more than ready to put into practice the new ideas that those groups and those individuals have sponsored. The cerealists now simply have many farmers waiting, ready to work with them in every branch of proving these new strains and getting them into commercial production.
The rust researchers have had for 30 years in this province, and for 30 years they have been doing a magnificent job, and all the time they have been engaged in a race, practically of life and death, with keeping up to the changing conditions with regard to rust. When the Honourable the Minister said that we had 500 strains of wheat out here, he might have mentioned -- I don't know the number of rust strains that they have now, but there are probably half that number, probably 250 strains of rust -- and they keep mutating all the time and it is a constant and never-ending race between the scientists on the one hand, both the rust researchers and the plant breeders, with a combination of earliness, to keep ahead of the rust invasion, and rust resistant by the rust researchers to keep ahead of the mutations that the rust spores themselves go through. They have done a grand job and I certainly join with the Minister in paying tribute to them.
Then the Minister went on to tell about some other work that is going on. I wouldn't, perhaps, have inflicted this speech on the honourable the members at all, if it hadn't been the fact that my honourable friend the Minister, with his tendency to be quite effusive and optimistic about what his own government is doing, seemed to me to be leaving the impression that these
fields of endeavour are new. I heard no new one mentioned. Now it may be that something new has been undertaken and I -- [Interjection] -- no, tobacco had been going on since the time that I was in the Department of Agriculture. I think my honourable friend said it was a couple of years. Tobacco experimentation was going on more than ten years ago, and more than three years ago some of my friends in the department and in the government smoked cigarettes made from Manitoba tobacco. I didn't test them myself, but several of the officials and the members did. I'm not trying to pretend that there has been great development in it. I haven't been close to it in the last few years and I'm glad to hear the optimistic report that my honourable friend gives on it. But I would suggest to him that, in a quick glance over the new Agricultural Research Report, I didn't notice "tobacco" mentioned in there, so I presume it's still being carried on directly through the Department of Agriculture as it was in my time, and I'm not complaining about that, but I would think that it's so difficult an experiment to assess completely that if it is not being duplicated or co-ordinated with the work the University, that that should be done immediately. It is not new! It's years old. The same with the experiments on "beans" that my honourable friend has mentioned. The Campbell Soup Company at Portage la Prairie themselves, and others, partly because of that institution being established there, have been experimenting with beans very intensively in the last couple of years. And before that, beans had been grown commercially here for a considerable length of time. Peas of course were a very major crop for a time, but have not been grown quite as widely in recent years.
And so I simply must say to my honourable friend, until I get the details from him that I asked the other day as to what programs he had mentioned that were new since this government took over, I must say that every one that I have heard of up-to-date was already in effect. The Minister mentioned some of them. I think that I should run over a few others -- well, a few of them as well, and I prefer to use the 1957 report rather the 1958 one which my honourable friend has just placed upon our desks. I would rather have used the '58 one, but I just hadn't time to check the many different varietal reports that are given there, and I did have an opportunity to go over the '57. But I suggest to my honourable friend that even the ones in 1958, even those would be largely in progress, I would think, before he took over his present position because they have to be planned some time ahead and the most of them are continuing programs. However, he is to give me the information on that subject.
Now, if the honourable members will look at the report that has been placed upon their desks, they will see that though the 1957 report is a year earlier than the one they now have, that a good many of the items are the same because they are continuing projects. For instance, on the first page of the Table of Contents, we have "Feed and Feeder Cattle Study". That has been going on for some time. And I would commend -- I have no doubt that it is in the '58 one too -- I would commend a reading of it to the members of the House before we attempt to study the livestock branch estimates because it is very important. The "Sugar Beet Study" -- it has been going on apparently since 1956, perhaps before that, and as honourable members know, that is a very important crop to the Province of Manitoba now. The "Farm Accounting Project" has been discussed in this House for two or three years now. It's one that I'm not familiar with but I believe it's carried on in the Carman area and it is, no doubt, very useful. The "Study of Productivity of Labour and Capital Resources of Farms in the Newdale Area" -- I haven't had the opporunity to read that one but I'm sure it's quite interesting too. "A Study of Makret Margins for Beef at Winnipeg" -- there is a might important one. It's well worth the short time that it will take to read it and I presume it is in the '58 report as well as the '57. "A Study of Price Spreads Between Heifers and Steers".
And in Agricultural Engineering, the "Comparison of Effects of Shallow and Deep Tillage on Soil Moisture and Crop Yields in Red River Clay Soil" -- that one has been going on for years. It is mighty interesting to see that the tillage practices that they have used have not given great differences in the yield -- not as much perhaps as we would expect. Another "Comparison of Four Tillage Machines for Fallow Cultivation" -- it's a good idea to let the people out there who are financed by the public funds, carry on some of the testing of these various machines. "Treatment of Sweet Clover in the Fallow Year" -- I haven't read that. "Comparison of Equipment for Seeding Through Trash" -- important in some areas at least of the province. "Grain Drying", "Hay Drying".
And then in the Animal Science, studies on dwarfism in beef cattle. My honourable friend mentioned that one, I believe. He didn't tell us the breed that is most subject to dwarfism. "The Effect of Orally Administered Stilbestrol on Reproduction in Cattle". The "Comparison of Loose Housing Extension Barn Methods of Housing and Managing Dairy Cattle" -- those I know have been going on for some time. "Nutritional Value of Manitoba Forages, Pasture Management Studies" -- I understood the Minister to say that he had benefitted by some of the pasture improvement work himself. That pasture improvement work was started way back in the '40s, and it has done good work because pasture is mighty important to a lot of farmers in this province. The development of a lion-bred strain of Yorkshire hogs -- my honourable friend from La Verendrye, I'm sure, could give a lot better information on that than I could. The "Valuation of Cross-Breeding as a Method of Commercial Swine Production". He's an expert on that one too, and I'm not, but that's mighty important work to have carried on at the University and it's been going on for years. These have to be long programs. They can't be done just on a day to day or even year to year basis. "Protient Energy Levels in Swine Nutrition", the "Role of Calcium and Zinc in the Control of Parakeratosis" -- I would have to call on my honourable friend to explain what the disease is. "Reciprocal Recurrent Selection of Chickens" -- I think we had legislation dealing with that subject here; if not legislation, a Supply Bill at least. The "Use of Auremycin and Stilbestrol in Lamb Feeding"; the "Response of Chickens to Certain Mercurial Fungicides"; and so on into Entomology, with the virus diseases of crops, the susceptibility of wheat varieties to the wheat midge -- one of the recent problems that the wheat farmer in the Red River Valley has had to face, and a great many others.
The Honourable Minister mentioned "barley-breeding". That's been going on for at least 15 years that I know of, and they're done a mighty good job of it. It's a continuing program and should be continued because it is doing good work. A breeding program in connection with it -- special investigation. He mentioned "corn-breeding". Ever since Dr. Olson came to this University, and it must have been pretty nearly 20 years ago, Dr. Olson brought with him a great deal of practical knowledge from the corn states of the south, and he introduced a corn program out there at the University -- I guess it has been carried on ever since. Feed corn doesn't occupy as prominent a place as it did a few years back in those dryer years, but the program that is being carried on is well worthwhile, I'm sure.
"Legume Investigations" -- the Honourable Minister mentioned alfalfa and sweet clover. Those have been on the way for years and will have to be continued for years, because we've had our difficulties with sweet clover too, and so on through the horticultural research in fruit, etc. And if there is one thing that I have noticed in a quick glance at the 1958 program that looks as though perhaps it has expanded, and I imagine that even it started before my honourable friend's time, would be the horticultural activities in the research line. "Potato Breeding" -- my honourable friend mentioned that we had a potato program out here and he read from the department's, or the University's brochure on the subject as to what the intentions were in regard to that program. That program was started at the time that Dr. Sammy Edgecomb was at the University of Manitoba. It must be very nearly 20 years ago and it has been going ahead ever since and there has been a great deal of good come out of it because it is a fact, and just as I was talking about milk a little while ago being produced in an area that's reasonably adjacent to the City of Winnipeg, so it is a fact that because of this huge market here, there has been a tendency for the growing of potatoes to concentrate at least close to this area, and the land close to Winnipeg in general is not the best potato growing soil. And so the University in co-operation with the Department of Agriculture, almost 20 years ago, went out to try and develop a potato that would be suitable to this district because of the fact that these farmers will continue to produce potatoes here and they wanted to get a potato inasmuch as the farms couldn't be moved, and the market was going to stay here, they would try and get a potato that could be grown under these soil conditions, and it would still be an acceptable table potato in Winnipeg. And they've done a very good job on the whole, but it is a long program and I'm sure that the end is not yet, and so on and so on.
I mustn't take any more time on that matter, but I did want to indicate to the House that the majority of these, if not every one of them that I have heard mentioned so far, have been programs that have been doing on long before the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture succeeded to his present position. And now I know that the Honourable the Minister has promised
to give me the list of the ones that are new and I would be very glad to get those and after that I'll be able to take a little time to look over the new Agricultural Research Report, for which I thank him, and then the other items I'll be happy to take up when they come in the regular course of the estimates.
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker - Mr. Chairman, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition made quite an extensive speech and because of that reason, before it is forgotten, I should like to follow him along at least a piece in order to cover some of the main subjects which were mentioned. (1) The Leader of the Opposition has said that there is duplication as far as farm loans are concerned. The complete answer is that although we've been in office, although we have been functioning in connection with Agricultural Credit but a very short time, we have more than 1,300 applications for credit. That is the complete answer.
The Leader of the Opposition has said that it's a common fallacy that people should be moved from where they are to better land that there's nothing wrong with the farmers staying where they are. I don't object if they do stay there as long as they don't starve, and many of them have faced that; as long as their children are permitted to get education, which most of them have not; providing they are able to feed their children sufficiently so that they'll grow up unimpaired, which most of them are. They're there by themselves, off in lonely places, where they should be brought back from so that they might bring up their children in decency; so that they might get education; so they might have an opportunity of life in this country in abundance as it should be.
Thirdly, the Leader of the Opposition has said, "We don't want any more experts". Only this month the farmers at Brandon, not having enough experts of those which we sent to them in large quantities, have decided that they will put up $6,000.00 to get experts to come from the United States in order to advise them in regard to agriculture and they have put up their money. The Leader of the Opposition has said that the solution of all of this is to rehabilitate the economic situation, whatever that may mean. That, I should say, would be as momentous as the changing of the world to rehabilitate the economic situation. And I suggest that the party opposite waited for years and years to rehabilitate the economic situation until suddenly they faced an election and they were beaten because they were still waiting for the economic situation to be rehabilitated by somebody other than this government.
The Honourable Leader of the Opposition has said that we have lots of trained weed men and of course there are in Manitoba a number of men trained in matters concerning weeds, but one of the first things that I faced when I came into this department was to receive a delegation from those in charge of weeds for the Province of Manitoba seeking assistance -- seeking to obtain more men who knew something about weeds in Manitoba. They suggested to me that I should go to the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, which I did, to discuss with them and get their co-operation. And they told me freely that in a number of their municipalities they had no weed control and, therefore, these men who were in charge of weeds for the Province of Manitoba were the men who suggested to me, as a policy request, that we should do something about weeds. As a result we set up a special committee headed by those who are in charge, who have just recently made a report to me making definite suggestions as to what should be done in order to help eliminate weeds in Manitoba, where they -- the Department of Agriculture -- have said before I came into the department that the farmers in Manitoba on the average were losing $1,000.00 a farm because they had so many weeds. The Leader of the Opposition says there are no new experiments. There are of course many new experiments but to a degree he is telling the simple truth, that studies go on from year to year started five, ten, fifteen years ago. But one of the differences is that in the past they have not been able to carry on those experiments properly because they have not been furnished with the necessary money in order to carry on those experiments, and that is why this year we have increased the amount which we are giving under the estimates in agriculture by more than 2 1/2 million dollars, because we have been advised there was inadequate money in the past in order that they might carry on these studies. There is inadequate housing at the University for the purpose of carrying on these studies and we have been implored and begged by the University to give them additional buildings, which we have agreed to do. A number of these are old age -- their former policies.
But what has happened in agriculture is very similar to that which happened in education. The government had an Act in regard to the larger areas for many, many years but they put
nothing behind it by way of promotion or money in order that it might become the law of the Province of Manitoba, and consequently there was but one larger division in Manitoba in the area of Dauphin. Policies which we have enlarged, made operative due to the fact that we've put more money and men behind them will operate in this province in a way in which they never have before. It's typical, too, of the former government that while they talked about crop insurance, they did nothing about it. And while they talked, some of them, in regard to agricultural credit, they said that was a policy of the Federal Government -- always was the Federal Government, instead of taking those necessary steps which they could have taken to increase the efficiency of agriculture in Manitoba in a way in which we have done.
And so while the Leader of the Opposition read us almost completely the "yellow book" in regard to this matter, I merely want to say a word at this time that those are the differences as far as this government is concerned and the past one is, that we are willing to accept the proposals of those who are expert in the department and who have been there for many years in regard to weeds -- we're accepting that policy. We're accepting many other policies. The economists of the Department of Agriculture have said, and we have the brief here, "That agriculture credit is a great necessity at the present time because of the situation of high prices and the like". And so we have been receiving this advice from those men in the department, most of them dedicated to agriculture, most of them appointed by the previous government. Nothing happened there because largely they were given no money; largely they were not given the freedom to operate and suggest. We called upon them and said, "If you have suggestions to make, bring them to us; bring them to me because I want to discuss them with you". So they have come from the various departments to suggest to us as to what should be done and we have gone forward to the best of our ability to bring about these reforms which I have mentioned.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that I am going to be able to agree completely with my honourable friend in one regard, and that is, when he says that they got in touch with the officials of the department and said if you have suggestions as to what to do, bring them to us; bring them to me. I'm sure that would be true because I always contended when my honourable friends were talking from this side of the House saying what should be done for agriculture and what they were going to do, that they had no idea themselves what they were going to do; that they would have to, of course, find out from the officials of the department what would look as though they had instituted a program. And no doubt that's exactly what my honourable friend had to do. And, thank goodness, there are good officials there; most of them appointed by us, as he said, who will give good advice as to what to do. And if they continue to follow the advice of those folks instead of trying to invent things that will look like a program to the people of the province, as my honourable friend has done in his speech, then the people will keep them on the straight and narrow line, I think.
Now as to this matter of us not giving the money to the University. That just is not true. And what my honourable friend said just now about them having increased the Department of Agriculture 2 1/2 millions just isn't true either.
MR. WILLIS: I said the estimates.
MR. CAMPBELL: They just moved a million and a half out of another department and put it in there and talk about it as though it was in increase for the Department of Agriculture. And my honourable friend, in his little discussion a minute ago, tied that up direclty with the Research Program -- directly with the Research Program -- we'll see it when we get the Hansard. He talked about that we hadn't given them enough money on this Research Program and that they -- that they provided 2 1/2 million dollars more and moved that out. That's just camouflage, Mr. Chairman, nothing but camouflage. We gave the people, as my honourable colleague has mentioned time and time, we gave the people of the University every dollar that they asked for in recent years, both for building and for operation. And when my honourable friend says that they didn't have enough buildings -- what did we build out there recently? That greenhouse that's been absolutely the backbone of their research program -- the scientific research end of it, not the practical or applied end. We gave them the new agricultural building; we did the remodelling of the other buildings that were there; every single thing that they asked for and University people are not noted for not asking enough. And when my honourable friend tries to pretend that we didn't give them enough, he just is not telling the truth; that is incorrect. We
gave them all the money they asked for and he knows it.
As far as rehabilitating the situation of the economy, I say again that what the farmer needs is to have his economy rehabilitated. It's the economic situation that's bothering him. My honourable friend can say quite properly that we, the provincial government, can't do very much about that. That's what I've said time and time again, and they used to be very critical of me saying that and they said we didn't even try. I admit it, that in the things that meant the most to the farmers -- the matter of markets, the matter of prices, the matter of trades and tariff, the matter of railway freight rates; in the things that mean the most to the farmers' income -- the most of all, that the Federal Government, so far as Canada is concerned, has the major responsibility, not the Provincial Government. And I didn't even blame the Federal Government completely because in many cases it has its international aspects. But my honourable friend and his leader and his colleagues who were here at that time all tried to pretend that they could do something about rehabilitating the situation of the farmer himself. They all tried to and they criticized us greatly for the fact that we were honest enough to admit that while we could do a good bit for the production end, that the other end of the farmers' interest was the most important one, and that lay in a sphere outside of ours.
My honourable firend has to admit that himself now. And even in the production end, what's he doing? His crop insurance scheme -- I hope he knows more about it tonight than he did last Friday night because we'll be asking him some more questions about it, and if he's so sure that we didn't do anything about it, let him get acquainted with what he's going to do because he couldn't tell us on Friday night anything about the plan that he says is going to be introduced pretty soon here. And as far as the farm loans are concerned, he says the complete answer -- and listen to this, Mr. Chairman -- the complete answer, says he, is in the fact that we've got 1,300 applications. Well but, if the Federal Government with the representations and advice that my honourable friend and his colleagues could have made to them, if they would have broadened their Act to do the things that my honourable friends have said were so necessary and have put into their legislation and their administration, they would have had the 1,300 applications to the Canadian Farm Loans' Board. Why not? Where is the complete answer in that? Mr. Chairman, it's no answer.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask a question or two of the Honourable the Minister, if he can tell us that team which has been appointed, when they will be able to get out into the Interlake area to investigate the flood situation there? And another item -- farmers are very disturbed in Fisher constituency and I believe in the whole Interlake area. I went down the week-end on Saturday and they wonder whether they are going to qualify for any assistance over and above the P.F.A. They are also very much concerned with the Federal Act -- I believe the Honourable Minister is very aware of it -- under the P.F.A., before the crop insurance comes in this year, if it comes this year, the Federal clause reads in Section 3, sub-section (e): "If an area of cultivated land could not be seeded or summer-fallowed in the year of an award owing to natural causes beyond the control of the farmers of such land; and six or more adjoining sections of land, or adjoining settlement or river lots in one or more groups declared to be a township for the purpose of this Act, each include part of the area; and the area is at least one-third of the total cultivated land in those adjoining sections or lots; the award with respect to such areas shall be $4.00 per acre." While, Mr. Chairman, the farmers, many of them, did not seed in my area. Those that did seed, some were flooded out. Now the weatherman is a very tricky man. Just last Wednesday in Broad Valley, south of Fisher Branch, it hailed that you could find hail stones on Thursday. South of Poplarfield, the people started working -- that's just another seven miles south of Broad Valley -- started working on summer fallow. In Fisher Branch north of Broad Valley, it rained heavily; five miles north of Fisher Branch, the people started work on summer fallow. This Act reads that if you did not seed or you lost your seed plants, then naturally possibly the weather will permit to summer fallow that land in the later date. So the farmer, I would say, would make a very bad mistake if he can get a chance on the land to summer fallow it in July or later part in July or beginning of August, he would be very advisable to do so because the weeds are going to come up, and so for the next crop ten times as much, as the Minister stated $1,000.00 per farm, and then it would add $2,000.00 per farm. And yet that Act prohibits the farmer to summer fallow or else he's not going to compensate under this Act, because of making the summer fallow that
same year.
In other words, some farmers are so much concerned that they don't know what to do about it. There are areas that they could summer fallow their land but the weatherman's playing havoc as I said before. It may rain tomorrow in that area -- they can go and plough it tomorrow and the day after tomorrow it's going to rain that they won't be able to get out on that summer fallow and bring it to shape, and yet they are disqualified under this Act. I'll draw you an example of myself. I have a plot of 100 acres which I had to summer fallow it three years due to the spring flooding, and this year also -- I couldn't seed. Just the other day, the beginning of the week, my brother got a "bee" together and got four tractors and he ploughed that 100 acres in summer fallow all over again. At dinner Saturday he finished the ploughing. Saturday after dinner it poured; it just rained so heavily that I don't know now whether I will be able to get out on that same plot, and here I'm going to be disqualified on account of summer fallowing and not get an award. What my idea is, and I beg the government to make a request to the Federal Government to review their Act or that particular sub-clause, why should we penalize the farmer twice? If he couldn't seed in spring or he lost his crop, now if he can be privileged to summer fallow it; we tell him if you want to get the $4.00, you don't summer fallow. And if he is trying to help himself to cure those weeds if possible, we penalize him that he is not going to qualify for it. So as far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chairman, I would urge the government to send a request to the Federal Government to review that particular clause that the farmers would come in to some assistance.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1 (a) -- Passed. (b) - Supplies, Expenses -- Passed. Resolution 25 - Administrations - $63,570.00. Item 2 - Agriculture (a) (1) -- Passed; (2) -- Passed; Supplies ...
MR. MOLGAT: On the matter of livestock, I wonder if the Minister could give us a report on the auction -- feeder auctions that were started three years ago and continued and expanded since that time. What is the program of the government in that regard and what are they doing?
MR. WILLIS: The auctions which were held were not held by the government but they did in some cases, of course, supervise them and, in general, they informed me that they proved to be a success and a good idea. On one paticular occasion they had a little trouble in regard to their money and I don't think that will occur again. I was at two or three of the sales. The prices were good and the people who had cattle for sale were very pleased with it and we think it's worthwhile, and we think it will be continued in the future.
MR. MOLGAT: Is the government taking any action to encourage the development of these auctions? I realize that they are a voluntary group locally, but I think in all cases the Ag. Reps. were most active in getting it started. I know in our particular case, we were the first ones to start this in Manitoba -- in Ste. Rose, and the Ag. Rep. there, Gus Arnell, did a wonderful job in getting it organized. Now is the government doing anything to have more of these in other localities?
MR. WILLIS: We are open to suggestions in regard to it. As we have just said, both of us, the government doesn't actually put them on but wherever we have a body of people who have sufficient cattle for a proper sale, we will help them with Ag. Reps. and sometimes we give them a grant in regard to some minor building or something like that. But, as you know, they are in charge. We help them to the best or our ability because we think it's a good thing.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) 3 - Pass.
MR. N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, on the Club Grants here, I wonder if the Honourable the Minister might explain what clubs are involved in the grants as listed under Item 3.
MR. WILLIS: In the past, we have been running their club fairs in the country where they sell their calves, and also included in this item, and a large item of it, is the livestock promotion which we are carrying on in the country of which I spoke in my original speech. We do help them with their club calves; we help them in regard to putting on their shows; and we also help, too, as far as promotion is concerned. And these are all, we think, beneficial works which are carried on by us in that way.
MR. S. ROBERTS (La Verendrye): Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister of his plans or intentions concerning the livestock branch and regarding the role that they have been
filling in the Province as Secretary of the Breed Associations. Do you intend to continue this policy of having our field men spending a great deal of their time as Secretary of Breed Associations?
MR. WILLIS: We are having a definite look at that; certainly at the moment we're considering it most carefully because it takes a lot of their time and also it gets the opinion, which is completely incorrect, that the department is promoting some particular breed, which it's not. We promote them all evenly and equally and try to give them exactly the same treatment. But we are giving that a very careful look and do not be surprised if there are changes.
MR. ROBERTS: I think the Minister -- I'm sure he's aware of this but in case he isn't -- I know that the Breed Associations themselves have looked at it themselves and are prepared, if they can receive some financial assistance from the government, to hire their own secretaries who could perhaps run this just as well as government men and, therefore, release the men that are doing these secretarial jobs for the purpose in which they are intended, that is, the promotion of the whatever breed they are associated with. I think that the government would be very wise to give assistance to the Breed Associations -- some tangible form of assistance so that they can hire their own secretaries and these men -- our livestock people who are valuable as promoters of whatever breed they're hired for, or whatever type of livestock, can give much more of their time to these things and could do a much better service to the farmers.
MR. WILLIS: We have made positions for three additional livestock men. We have added two to date but I think the point is very well taken and is one which I have considered with the Breed Associations some time ago before I got into this job.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I believe you were on Item 4, because I want to comment on Item 4.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Sorry, there's been no 4.
MR. WAGNER: I want to speak on Item 4.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we're past 3. 3 -- passed?
MR. CAMPBELL: I have a question on 3, Mr. Chairman. In regard to livestock promotion, the price received through our livestock is, of course, one of the greatest -- I think the greatest feature in its promotion. I would like to hear the Minister comment on the prospective change by the Federal Department of Agriculture whereby it's indicated that they will be paying on a deficiency payment basis for livestock marketings rather than the stabilization program -- price stabilization. What is the present situation there?
MR. WILLIS: Well, in regard to the stabilization, I have discussed it with some of the members of the Federal Government and, for what it's worth, their position is that now they are going to give that 80% which they say is in their regulation and that that will be, of course, slightly lower than it is at the present time. We are hoping, of course, to keep that as high as possible, and we know the result of it at the present time which makes it very bad. It is effective April 1st to March 31st, 1960, which gives you, as far as steers are concerned, there is no change; in regard to lamb prices, no change hs been proposed; in regard to ... for hogs $22.25; and the proposed stabilization price would bring it down to $20.90, which again is lower. But in all of these, their answer for what it is worth is that we are sticking to that 80% of average price and we don't want to establish incentive prices in regard to these items so that there will be too many of them sold, and they point to the great surplus which they have in regard to hogs and bacon. And that is the best I could do with them.
MR. CAMPBELL: Isn't it a fact, Mr. Chairman, that they are proposing a different basis of payment in that instead of supporting the market, they will be now making a payment direct to the producers? Is that not inherent in the plan?
MR. WILLIS: I do not know. Well, they didn't tell me that in my conversations.
MR. CAMPBELL: Apparently that entente cordiale is not working too well between you folks and the Federal Government. Surely -- surely, Mr. Chairman, that the Honourable Mr. Harkness would tell the Ministers of Agriculture what he's planning? There have been, I don't know that you would call it rumour, there has been speculations in the Press that one of the great reasons for the change is that the Federal Minister of Agriculture wants to evolve a program by which he can -- what's the term -- separate the family farm producer from the -- what does my honourable friend call it? -- the manufacturer -- that he's going to separate the family farm producer from the production line or vertical integration or whatever term they want to apply to it. Is my honourable friend not familiar with the program?
MR. WILLIS: I'm quick to say that he didn't consult me in regard to it. I've been reading what I could get in regard to it and that's the best I've been able to do to date.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, even if he didn't consult the Honourable Minister, and I wouldn't be surprised that he wouldn't consult the Ministers in advance of making their decision, but surely once it is made, and my understanding of it is that it's to apply for the period that we are now in, surely he would at least communicate the details of it to the Provincial Ministers of Agriculture. Has my honourable friend not received any information on that subject?
MR. WILLIS: No information came to me.
MR. CAMPBELL: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, we have several items here already and they're out of order for the moment perhaps, but we have several items where the Minister promised to bring us some information when we were discussing these estimates Friday night. Could I just remind him of them -- one of them was, how many young farmers were among the 71 that had their loans approved -- how many young farmers and how many that weren't young farmers? The Minister promised the information on that one.
MR. WILLIS: I think it's 37 - I have it here.
MR. CAMPBELL: He was also asked re the districts from which the 71 came and I think he had some doubts about securing that information.
MR. WILLIS: I have requested it but I haven't got it yet.
MR. CAMPBELL: Surely it would be quite easy to get them, let us say, by municipalities. And would it be -- I think this makes it in order to discuss it now because one thing I would like to know would be in the loans that are approved, how are they proportional as between land and livestock? Because I share the view with someone who spoke here the other evening that livestock today seems to be a very good security. And if that information is available, I'd be very glad to have it.
Then I'm sure that crop insurance is probably - should be discussed further on with the soils and crops branch rather than here, so I'll leave my questions on that until that time.
But would the Minister undertake to find what is available on the department -- on this matter of the changed basis of the Federal Government for reimbursing the farmers for their livestock when the prices go low?
MR. WILLIS: I'll try and get that.
MR. CAMPBELL: Could we have that item stand in the meantime, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 3, is it? Item 4 --
MR. WAGNER: Item 4 - it reads "Grants - Herd Improvement Associations and Veterinary Service Districts - $16,400.00". Well, my question is, veterinary service, I would like to have more information because as far as our area is concerned we haven't got a Vet, and as I spoke earlier in the House, I don't need to .... I also made a note here that the Honourable Minister stated that our agricultural representatives have been paid, some of them up to the bracket of $7,300.00 per year. Now in our area the veterinary would be just as equally important as the Ag. Rep. or possibly at times even better, so I was just wondering if the Minister wouldn't give me some indication whether they gave any thought of giving a veterinary service in that area in the same manner of compensation as to the agricultural representatives. The farmers out there, they're trying to organize themselves to get a veterinary service Vet, in other words, and they have some difficulties, they are still working on the scheme but insofar as it's impossible for them to get a veterinary because the Vet doesn't want to come in unless there is approximately a $3,000.00 guarantee. So I was just wondering if there is in that amount of $16,000.00 any of it available in our area for a Vet service?
MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, if I might reply direct -- as far as the veterinaries are concerned, the ordinary basis where there is help, is that we get $1,000.00 from the local area; we put up $1,000.00 for the Vet, then having got the $2,000.00 we try to get the Vet, which is the difficulty. That's where you really run into trouble. To get your Vet to go there even though he's bonused at $2,000.00 extra in order to go. And we have at the moment, just to the best of our knowledge, only one district where they've been able to work that out, because the veterinary surgeons are making very big money at the moment and to get them to go there is a matter of great difficulty even though you bonus them $2,000.00 to start with. The vast majority won't go at all on that basis and we haven't been able to get them even on a bonus basis of some $2,000.00. As far as the Ag. Reps. are concerned, that's just the Civil Service
salary which is controlled by the Civil Service depending upon how long he man's been there, his seniority, and he goes up to that bracket. Everyone's paid on the same basis.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, just a supplementary question, it's not quite clear to me. Did I hear the Honourable Minister say that you are willing to give a Vet a bonus of $2,000.00 per year or a guarantee for $3,000.00 per year if he would go in to the area and you have a hard time finding? We have a man who resides in Stonewall; he is willing to come out in that area; but the farmers don't seem to find a proper solution of finances to keep him there.
MR. WILLIS: Well, there's a policy which we've had for many years whereby, if a district wants to get a veterinary surgeon and get him to come in there -- and one has done so recently -- that they have to produce $1,000.00 a year first in the area; then we put up another $1,000.00 to help him as well; then he charges regular fees; so that's the policy, and if you can work it out we'd be -- we hope you can. But the difficulty is to get the veterinary surgeons to go out in the country. Many places haven't got one at all, and many hundreds of miles, and the only place it seems to be able to get one and keep one is where they have a concentration of cattle where they don't have to drive too far to make their money. There are lots of those places where they don't have to drive too far to make their money, consequently, they go to those places and there aren't enough in western Canada.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, did the Minister say that there was only one area in which the veterinary surgeon is receiving this $1,000.00?
MR. WILLIS: To the best of my knowledge, there is but one. I would stand for correction there, but one which we put in recently in Manitoba, that's as far as I know the only one, but I might stand corrected there because I haven't run into it.
MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, for further information. This is a disorganized territory and it's so hard to organize to bring up that $1,000.00. But what's happening right there at the moment is that the Vet is willing to go providing he gets the $3,000.00 guarantee, and he is willing to charge the services fee. But he wants that $3,000.00 -- the mileage -- that if he is sure of that $3,000.00 he wouldn't have to charge the mileage, and what is actually against the farmer there is the mileage, because they have to pay some of them up to as high as $50.00 for the mileage for the Vet, and then on top of it a service fee. So they are really faced with the Vet service there. They're in a difficult position because if an animal, say for example a yearling, and if it's not too good of a breed, so it's total value is only $30.00, $25.00, so nobody calls the Vet, so it dies. Then in the other words, there's a valuable calf for $100.00. They call the Vet. The Vet takes $65.00 with his services; they sell the calf; they get $35.00. Well, it's not helping the farmer either way. I thought possibly if the government or the Minister would give the consideration to at least go to a certain extent to compensate just the same or on the same principle as an Ag. Rep. to help the area out.
MR. CHAIRMAN: It is now 5:30 and I shall leave the Chair until 8:00 o'clock.
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