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MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 3 (a) Administration: Salaries - Passed.
MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, just before we finished at 5:30, I was saying a few words about the question of standards for entrance into Teachers' College and the Honourable the First Minister interrupted me to suggest that I had spoken on this once before. I took the trouble to check the Hansard of two days ago and I'm satisfied that I wasn't repeating myself and I'm also satisfied that - still satisfied that I'm not in agreement with the position that the Minister took. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Chairman, I think I should say this, that members of the opposition have a right to express themselves and the Honourable the First Minister when he was in the opposition exercised that right to express himself.
MR. CHAIRMAN: ... that is if your're dealing with the item that's under consideration.
MR. ORLIKOW: Well, Mr. Chairman, if I wasn't, I think you would have told me so. Also I don't think, Mr. Chairman, that it's for the Honourable the First Minister to tell members on this side who is to speak. He may have a good deal to say about who speaks on that side of the House, on this side of the House and certainly as far as I'm concerned, the only person who can indicate to me that I'm speaking too often is the Leader of the C.C.F. and the Chairman, of course, and aside from that, Mr. Chairman, I reserve the right to speak whenever I think I have something to say.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I hasten to come to the defence of the Minister of Education. The Member for St. Johns made a suggestion just before the House rose that the Minister said that there would be no more permit teachers in Manitoba. Now I recollect very well what the Minister said and he said that "there would be no more short courses for permit teachers' training", which is an entirely different thing. And I suggest to the committee, much as I regret it, that the fall term will see a considerable number of permit teachers, particularly at the secondary level, and I'm sure the Minister will bear me out in that. I'm hopeful that permit teachers at the elementary level will disappear. The previous administration cut down the attendance very substantially and I'm happy to hear that the Minister was able to discontinue that practice altogether, but I know that he will be the first to admit that at the secondary level until we get this program going, increased attendance at the Faculty of Education in Brandon, the Faculty of Education at the University, that there will be a considerable number of permit teachers at the secondary level still operating in the fall term.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1 - Passed. Item 2 - Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals - Passed. Item 3 - Construction, Alterations and Renovations -
MR. MILLER: No now, just a minute, Mr. Chairman. I would like -- and I confess this afternoon I was slightly bewildered, and I think that if the Minister in order to help discussion, help understanding, would submit to the committee a breakdown of this item. He mentioned that registration is in it - many members are very interested in examination, the progress that hs been made, any changes in the set-up, setting of papers, failure rates and all this sort of thing. I think the Minister would be well advised to give a complete account of this particular appropriation.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I just didn't make myself entirely clear. I was speaking this afternoon very briefly about the position of the director of teacher training and spoke about certain responsibilities which would fall under that department. I don't think, however, that what the honourable member is suggesting now, falls in this particular appropriation of the Department of Education. I got carried away by my own eloquence when describing the duties of the director of teacher training. But under the (b) item of Appropriation No. 3 as indicated in the sub-paragraphs 1, 2 and 3, the salaries of the people employed at the Teachers' College, and I would just explain that that includes the salaries of all persons employed at the Teachers' College, 23 on the professional staff, which is the same number as last year and the difference is made up by the office staff, nurses, housekeeper, kitchen staff. In other words, we have put into that item all persons who are employed at the Teachers' College. The other --
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, didn't the Minister indicate that registration would come under this? I'm quite sure he did, because we didn't go beyond this item.
MR. McLEAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, if I did I was in error. If I said that I was not correct because registration does not come under this item. The item (b) 2 are simply all of the expenses, largely the expenses connected with the kitchen and dormatories of the Teachers' College and of course, the other expenses that are normally incidental to the operation of that institution. And the third item, Construction, Alterations and Renovations include a fence, baker's oven (the oven needs replacement), lockers for the gymnasium and an addition to the service building which is part of the kitchen.
MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Chairman, am I correct in assuming then, that there is an increase in staff under "3", of 8 over the previous year?
MR. McLEAN: No, Mr. Chairman, that is not correct. There is no increase in the staff that relates to the staff at the Manitoba Teachers' College and that is the same staff that was there last year.
MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Chairman, on checking the last year's estimates under teacher training, I added it up and while I must confess that I am not as adept in arthmetic as the Honourable Member for Burrows ...
A MEMBER: Hear! Hear!
MR. MILLER: I find that last year under these teacher training items there was a staff, of 54 and I add up under teacher training under this appropriation and I find the staff 62.
MR. McLEAN: Well, I don't follow ...
MR. MILLER: 55 and 7 - that's quite correct.
MR. McLEAN: Well ...
MR. MILLER: And that emphasizes one thing that I've said before, that I think these appropriations have been so muddled up that even an expert, like the Honourable Minister of Education himself, can't make head or tail of it.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, the explanation is quite straightforward. There were for a number of years four persons employed at the Teachers' College in the kitchen staff who were employed as temporary help and therefore not shown on the complement of the staff. We took the natural, logical step of putting them on the staff officially, so that they are now there, whereas they were not counted - shown last year on the estimates, those four people are there now. In addition to that, and in this section we have the director of teacher training about whom I spoke this afternoon, we have included the person who will be the supervisor of recruitment and retention - that is recruitment to Teachers' College or teacher training - which is one of the part time persons inasmuch as he acts also as a school trustee and the person responsible for the Manitoba School Journal, which accounts for seven.
MR. MILLER: Would it be fair to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that it would be helpful to the Minister if the members of the committee had a complete break-down in writing so that we might properly consider these estimates as they should be considered? Would that be a fair question?
MR. McLEAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, a complete break-down in writing of this particular provision would be no more warranted than a complete break-down of every other individual item in the estimates and I am certain that we would require a very large staff of people to make that document.
MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Chairman, with all due deference and I respect the Minister's judgement, I submit that it would be very helpful to him if he could submit to the committee in writing a break-down - and I'm going back and quite prepared to go back - because I want to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this committee with all due deference, hasn't had the information that was previously available.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) 3.
MR. MILLER: At which stage are we to discuss the fees chargeable at the Teachers' College? Is this the proper point?
MR. McLEAN: Well, I presume so, fees are rather - I would think would come under the budget when we are discussing revenue but if the member wishes to discuss fees, we are now dealing with the Manitoba Teachers' College, and subject to whatever ruling the Chairman might wish to make on that point.
MR. MOLGAT: ... interested in the fees chargeable at the Teachers' College because as I recall the second day of this particular session, the Minister himself got up and told us that there was to be a substantial increase in the fees chargeable there for students
going into teacher training and on the general aspect of it, it seems to me that this is absolutely against what the First Minister and his colleagues in the front bench, particularly were telling not only us, but all the people in Manitoba in the past few months. Because it was suggested then that everything that the government planned would be done without increases in taxes. Now, as far as I'm concerned an increase in fees such as this, is nothing more than an increase in taxes because it is a charge being made to the public of Manitoba and in this particular case I think the fee increase is very wrong. To begin with it is a very substantial increase. The tuition has been doubled from $50.00 to $100.00, the board has been increased from $300.00 to $400.00. So you take the case of a student coming from outside of the City of Winnipeg and this is different I'll admit for people living within travelling distance from the Teachers' College, but for anyone living further out than that, it means an increase of almost 50% in the costs of attending Teachers' College next year. I quite admit that teachers' salaries have been going up under the new grants particularly, they will be getting substantial increases, but that does not change the picture for a young student coming from anywhere in the rural parts of Manitoba to attend Teachers' College, that student still has not had a chance to obtain that higher salary; that student must finance himself during that year at Teachers' College on the rates of the new fees. Now if we are going to encourage youngsters to go into the Teacher Training College and to go into teaching, surely the way to do it is not to submit them to an increase in fees such as this one. I suggest that the government would be well advised to leave the fees where they were, encourage more youngsters to go there and an increase in fees does not seem to be the way to do it. Now this is a particular hardship for any younsters in the rural parts, because they are faced with travelling expenses as well, additional living expenses when they are there, because after all the board will not cover all the costs - and this is a descrimination against them. It seems to me that while this is now a...fee and I suppose that we can't change it but the Minister should give it serious consideration for next year whether a decrease should not be put in the fees.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I think there are two points to be made in reply to what the honourable member has said. First of all this is not an increase of taxation, taxation is a levy or are levies which are made for the purpose of being paid into the consolidated revenue fund of the province for the general administration of the expenses of the Province of Manitoba and there is a very clear distinction to be made between that situation and the case where we provide a service for which we make a charge and the fees that are charged for - tuition fees for the Manitoba Teachers' College clearly fall into the second category. Now last year the Province of Manitoba paid for the operation of Manitoba Teachers' College over and above the monies received from the students attending, something over $338,000.00, or if you put it the other way, it was subsidized, teachers' training in that particular institution was subsidized to the amount of $338,000.00. Even with the increase, and this of course is on the assumption that we have a full complement of students in that institution as we had last year, even with the increase in fees, the Province of Manitoba will still be subsidizing that course of training in the amount of $289,000.00 over and above the monies that are received from the students in attendance at the course. Now I suggest to the members of this committee that that is a very substantial amount by which to subsidize that course and when one considers the salaries that teachers are now able to earn on their very first employment largely, entirely as a result, I think, of the increased grants that are made by the Province of Manitoba for the maintenance of our schools.
On the subject of travelling expenses, the honourable member will be pleased to know that they are averaged out for the students in attendance at the Teachers' College and that no student is required to pay, is paid or repaid any amount which he has expended over the average amount. You will bear in mind also that we...
MR. MILLER: There is no change in policy?
MR. McLEAN: No, this is the policy that has continued for some time I believe. In addition the amount which may be lowered aside altogether from the bursary assistance which is available, bursary and scholarship assistance which is considerable, there are monies provided for loans. It is in the revolving fund now of $140,000.00. The amount that can be loaned to a student is ample to take care of any costs and that money is loaned without interest, very easy repayment terms so that there is nothing whatsoever in any of this that is going to
make it difficult in any way, shape of form for any person who desires to attend Teachers' College to do so.
But let me say one other thing that we do, rightly or wrongly, we do judge things to a money standard, and as long as were are prepared to leave the tuition fees low for our teachers' training then people will regard it as being a profession of small importance and I suggest that as we increase the fees we will increase the respect with which the teaching profession itself is treated and will attract to our Teachers' College many more people than would otherwise be the case who will take the rather obvious view that if it's good enough to pay $100.00 fee, then it must indeed be a good profession. And my suggestion to this committee is that not only have we by this means increased the amount of money that we will receive toward the payment of the expenses of this course, but we have enhanced the public recognition and the view that the public will take of teacher training and teaching.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, quite frankly I can't follow the argument of the Honourable Minister at all. I think that this is one matter, that we are still short of teachers. We are still short of teachers, particularly at the secondary level and I think that everything should be done to encourage young people to enter the profession to alleviate that shortage. I might mention too, and again I refer to the secondary level, that every encouragement should be given by way of reduced fees and subsidization until we are in a position to staff every school whether it be elementary or secondary with qualified teachers. I think, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister, who, and I'll give him credit, probably through his policy of increased salaries for teachers and so forth due to his program, is now in a position to tighten up on standard of admission to the Manitoba Teachers' College, I think that he might well do that and carry on with the subsidization that was provided in the past.
Now, Mr. Chairman, you will, of course realize that I want to be very helpful to the Minister. I want to help him pass his estimates. I've known the spot he's in. I've been there ... [Interjection] ... I've been there. But I will say again as I have said on more than one occasion since the estimates were brought up, through this streamlining, and I don't suggest who provided the streamlining, maybe it was this mysterious Department of Organization and Methods, I don't -- maybe it was due to the influence of the inner junta, I don't know -- but I think the Minister is providing an awful lot of trouble for himself through this change of format. And I am just wondering whether or not he would listen to this suggestion that I made just a few minutes ago, that in order that his estimates be passed rapidly and with understanding and with full discussion, whether he might not consider furnishing members of the committee with a written breakdown of each major appropriation item. And I can assure him as far as I'm concerned, and I'm supposed to have some knowledge of the department, but quite frankly I am bewildered. And some honourable members laughed when I said that ... [Interjection] ... all right, I'll address myself to the First Minister. Would he be capable of giving the explanations under these items? No! Certainly not! And there isn't an honourable member opposite and the Honourable Member for Education has trouble, and every member on this side of course has trouble. So if you want an argument on that point, Mr. Chairman, and I'm addressing myself to the First Minister, I'll suggest this: If he's so confident that these estimates as constituted are comprehensible, let him say to his Minister of Education, "sit down boy, I'll take over". Is that a fair question? But failing that and I realize it is a little too late, let's not hurry, let's skip full discussion; let the Minister provide all the answers and quite frankly I'll do everything I can to expedite the passing of these estimates.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister is doing an excellent job and I'm perfectly satisfied with his performance.
MR. MILLER: No doubt, the honourable member is. And I only wish that when there was a time when all information was available that he would have paid me the same tribute, which he didn't.
MR. ROBLIN: There has to be a reason for the things I say.
MR. MILLER: I doubt very much because, Mr. Chairman, I've listened with great respect to the utterings of the First Minister and a great many of them don't make sense.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Total (b) - $404,750.00; (c) 1 Summer Schools - 2. Brandon College Teachers' Courses.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I would I like to have - I suggest to the Minister that he
give us some information about the attendance at Manitoba Teachers' College. He gave us the figures on Brandon - let us skip it - let him give us the information on Central Teachers' College. Let him break down those who are presently in attendance or who have graduated as to qualifications. I'm very interested in that. And I might add too that I'd like some information as to the comparison between this year's crop and last year's crop. (Students.)
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, the enrollment this year at the Manitoba Teachers' College was 703 as compared to 510, 1957-1958; and 481 in 1956-1957. In the faculty of education at the University of Manitoba the enrollment was 53. In the faculty of education course at Brandon the enrollment was 7, and the normal course - the training of elementary teachers at Brandon College - the enrollment was 116.
MR. MILLER: Compared to last year?
MR. McLEAN: 73. Substantially up insofar as elementary - the training of elementary teachers is concerned. Now as to a comparison of the crop from which I presume the honourable member is wanting my opinion as to whether they are as good or better than those who went before ...
MR. MILLER: No, I want the breakdown as to qualifications.
MR. McLEAN: Oh! Well, I'm not in the position to give that exact information. I would say that, generally speaking the qualifications, that is, the standing as to number of students with clear grade XII and those with less than grade XII were substantially in the same proportions as have been in previous years; except that this year - this year that has ended - we have - the Teachers' College, with some encouragement from the Department of Education, undertook to give grade XII subjects through a course a night school classes to the students who were capable of taking them, in order to - so that the students who had the minimum of two classes in grade XII or more, were able to take further subjects in grade XII during the year that they were in Teachers' College with the result that - and I haven't the figures to give on this but I would think that the number of students who graduated would have a larger percentage of people with a larger number of grade XII subjects completed than had been the case in previous years. But I'm not in a position to give the exact numbers of those students. The information, of course, will be in the annual report of that ...
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I'm very encouraged by the remarks of the Honourable Minister. In years gone by and of course, a lot of the students during the term of instruction at Teachers' College endeavoured to prepare themselves to write off any deficiencies. And I think though, that his idea of the staff -- encouraging them by way of night school to do that is an excellent one, and I want to commend him for it.
There is one thing that remains in my mind. What does the Minister think as to the number of possible permit teachers for the following term at the secondary level and at the elementary level?
MR. McLEAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't expect that there would be very many teachers teaching under permit at the elementary level. Now that's only an opinion but I think a reasonably based opinion. Remember, of course, that when we speak of permit teachers at the elementary level, we are speaking of people who have either no teaching training at all or a short term of teaching training - perhaps six weeks as was the case with the summer permit course that was conducted up until last year.
Insofar as the secondary schools are concerned, the number of permit teachers in my opinion, will be substantially the same as last year; reduced somewhat by the fact that we are getting back into the Province of Manitoba a number of teachers who have gone from this province to other provinces and are now returning; and perhaps a number of teachers who have taught in our secondary schools, have gone to other employment and are now returning to teaching. That number, however, will not be of any great proportion. But we must remember that the use of the term "permit teacher" as it affects secondary schools must be very carefully - must be kept in its proper concept because these folks are, while they have permits or letters of authority to teach in high school, they are people who have had a full teacher training course - have trained shall we say as elementary teachers. And I rather - not wanting to gloss over the fact that they are in a sense permit teachers in secondary schools, I rather favour the term or expression "unauthorized" - not unauthorized because they are authorized - but "unqualified" teachers in secondary schools, because they're unqualified in the sense that they have not the
full academic training in standing which is normally required for high school teaching purposes.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I realize, of course, that there are a great number of teachers who are fully qualified professionally and academically at the elementary level who are now teaching in the high schools, but there is still a number and quite a substantial number of university graduates who haven't the professional qualifications, who are given permits. Now I don't quarrel with the Minister's definition of a permit. I suggested when the Honourable Member for St. Johns stated that there were no permit teachers in Saskatchewan, he was quite correct, because he used a different term - they use a different term. But they are teachers operating under special authority from the Minister. And I suggest to the Minister this - that he pursue in his course to get as many qualified teachers at the secondary level coming from the faculty and do everything he can to encourage the increase in enrollment there. Now I realize, of course, that we can't get along too fast, but there's yet another field to explore, and the older members will remember that on many occasions I've drawn attention to the fact that in some school jurisdictions there are a great number, a great number of fully qualified secondary teachers teaching in elementary grades. And I made the statement for a number of years that if these teachers were teaching the subjects to which they were trained and to which they were qualified, there would be no shortage of secondary teachers in Manitoba. Is the Minister aware of that fact and what are his views on it?
MR. McLEAN: I'm aware of the fact, Mr. Chairman, but I am also aware of the fact that in dealing with people that a reasonable degree of personal liberty should be allowed and that should apply to people who are qualified to teach in high schools; if they choose to teach in elementary schools, while I might regret that fact, nevertheless I acknowledge their right to make that choice. And I don't feel that we would be warranted in interfering with the liberty which a person has to choose the field of his activity. However, I think that if the honourable member will just give us another year, we'll cure the shortage in secondary teachers as we've cured it in elementary fields.
MR. MILLER: In consequence of the policy adopted by the previous administration. Yes, I mean, the records there - now don't laugh. There's one thing I would like to get the Minister's views on and whether he is in favour of the single salary schedule. This has been the reason for so many people qualified as secondary teachers to continue in elementary grades. And that problem isn't a Manitoba problem. I read a report a couple of years ago that the same problem existed in Alberta where they have all the reorganization and all the wealth of oil, and still it was found that due to the adoption of the single salary schedule that the rural divisions were deficient in qualified teachers, whereas the urban divisions had a plethora of people qualified to teach in the secondary who were teaching in the elementary.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't imagine that my views on the advisability or otherwise of the single salary schedule principle would be of any particular interest to this committee.
MR. MILLER: It sure would.
MR. McLEAN: But of much more concrete interest is the fact that when we introduce the grant towards teachers' salaries, the grant towards the salary of a teacher teaching in a secondary school, assuming the same qualifications, is higher than the grant toward the salary of that same teacher if he or she were teaching in an elementary school. In other words, we recognize the need to encourage qualified secondary teachers to teach in secondary schools. Whether what we have done in that connection will have the effect we hope, of course only time can tell, and it may be shown that our hopes were misplaced. I rather suspect that it will show a considerable improvement because of that fact. So aside altogether from any views one may have on the subject of salary schedules in themselves, we have recognized the problem and we have done something to try and correct it so far as we are able to do from this particular point of view.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, under (b) 1. Salaries 55 - has there been any increase in the staff at Teachers' College or is this a combination of what was formerly under 3 (e)?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We are half-way through (c).
MR. ROBLIN: You asked that question before ...
MR. MILLER: Manitoba Teachers' College?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, but we're down to ...
MR. MILLER: Well, I'm asking the question - I'm asking the question, whether there is any increase in the staff of Manitoba Teachers' College?
MR. McLEAN: No increase.
MR. MILLER: No increase?
A MEMBER: We answered that a while ago.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (2) Brandon College Teachers' courses.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we leave No. (1), could the Minister outline what summer school courses are being run this summer? I see a slight decrease. I don't imagine it's going to mean a change in the courses? Or does it?
MR. McLEAN: Well, I'll be glad to have calendars sent to the honourable member. Generally speaking, the courses being offered this year are the same in number and same in type as were offered last year and I believe, have been offered for a number of years. They will be conducted in the same manner, that is to say at the Teachers' College in Tuxedo, at one of the schools in Winnipeg, at the Manitoba Technical Institute and in Gimli. The only substantial difference is in the number which we expect to have and we anticipate a much larger enrollment than has been the case before -- and the summer school will commence next Monday.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, is there a corresponding increase in the revenue side due to the increase in fees, and what is the amount?
MR. CHAIRMAN: (2) Brandon College Teachers' Courses; (3) Additional ...
MR. MOLGAT: On No. (2), Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it No. (2) you're on?
MR. MOLGAT: Yes, that's right. There's a very substantial increase in that amount. I wonder if the Minister could outline what changes are anticipated in the college, or if it's just a question of increased enrollment?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, under the agreement between the Province of Manitoba and Brandon College, Brandon College is paid an amount per student -- I'm speaking now of students in the elementary, training for positions as elementary teachers. The Brandon College is paid an amount which is equivalent to the cost -- per capita cost of the students in the preceding year at the Teachers' College, and that is the basis on which the amount is arrived at. Now, the subsidy or the amount paid to Brandon College will be at the rate -- for the coming year -- will be at the rate of $602.00 per student which is the average going back one year at Manitoba Teachers' College, and the subsidy for the faculty students -- at least the rate for faculty students is fixed at $700.00 per student; and the increase in this amount is largely accounted for by the fact that we are assuming -- we're hoping and assuming that we will have 15 students in that faculty course at Brandon College, which is a substantial increase over the number that has ever been there before and certainly over the number that was there last year.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, there's no change in policy in connection with this item?
MR. McLEAN: None.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (3).
MR. McLEAN: I might, perhaps I should just point out because the comparision -- I gave the figure of $602.00 as compared to $581.80 before, so we have the increase in the elementary people taking elementary and then the increased number of students in the faculty course, which is simply a follow-up on the previous policy.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Total - $177,445.00. (d) Manitoba School Journal ...
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we leave No. (3). This appears to be a new item. Could the Minister explain what this is?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, this, the estimates here were, of course, completed -- were made up some months ago, as the members of the committee will realize, and we had at that time a full registration at the Manitoba Teachers' College and a full registration in that particular department at Brandon College. We recognized the necessity of increasing the number of teachers being trained, and the item there of $43,320.00 is our estimate of what it would cost if we were called upon and felt it advisable to make provision for 100 additional students, that is, 100 students over and above what can be accommodated at the Manitoba Teachers' College and at Brandon College. Now, I'm not in a position to say whether that will be necessary -- I shouldn't say whether it will be necessary or not, whether we will have the students for that. I think that if the students were available we would be very interested in
providing those additional services and that is our estimate of those additional costs and we separated it out only to indicate that it was an item to provide for additional training facilities or for teachers' training.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, where would it be anticipated that that additional training would be given?
MR. McLEAN: It might be given, Mr. Chairman, at any place in the Province of Manitoba, and again would depend upon the circumstances which would obtain when deciding to proceed with that additional training. It obviously couldn't be given right at the Manitoba Teachers' College because their facilities are now, assuming they have the same enrollment, their facilities are full, and it could be at some other location in the Greater Winnipeg area or in some location anywhere in the Province of Manitoba.
A MEMBER: Such as Dauphin, for example?
MR. McLEAN: That's a very fine place.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, what is the residential capacity of Teachers' College now?
MR. McLEAN: I can't tell you off-hand what the residential capacity is, but it's not any different than it was before.
MR. MILLER: That's a very, very, very instructive answer and I appreciate it, and that's one time I knew the answer, but I'm quite sure that at least 90% of the other members don't and I would appreciate ... [Interjection] No, no, I'm not pinch-hitting for the Minister -- I think that he should make that information available, and I would like to suggest to him that while the residential facilities are limited, naturally, the instructional facilities at Teachers' College are not. And that any additional training that he might want to carry out to accommodate additional candidates, might well be carried on at Teachers' College.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (d) Manitoba School Journal.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I notice a substantial decrease there in the appropriation. Does the Minister intend to reduce the number of issues or what is the reason for this?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I was going to ask the assistance of the Treasury Board who have been so successful in reducing costs of publications by the Province of Manitoba, to assist us in decreasing the cost of this journal. We anticipate perhaps changing the format, if I may use that term, of the journal and to reduce the cost without reducing the material or the type of material that is carried in it. It is our view that perhaps it is a little more expensive than is necessary under all the circumstances.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, in view of the statement made by the Minister that he intends to invoke the Department of Organization and Methods in connection with this item, has he asked the assistance of the Department of Organization and Methods of the Treasury Board to streamline the actions of the Department of Education, or is he quite satisfied with the set-up that he inherited and of which he spoke so highly the other day?
MR. ROBLIN: He hasn't asked the Treasury Board as yet to do that, Mr. Chairman, but I'm thinking of asking the Treasury Board to streamline the honourable member.
MR. MILLER: Well, I would suggest one thing, that the Honourable the First Minister is in need of streamlining himself.
MR. McLEAN: Just one comment, Mr. Chairman, on the matter of the staff. The answer to the question which the honourable member has asked is 'no', I'm not satisfied with the type of organization in the Department of Education, and I think that for too long the senior officers in the department have been overworked and have not been given the staff that they require to do the job that they've had to do in the past, and certainly haven't had the necessary assistance to do the job that we're expecting them to do now. When we get these estimates though, it is certainly our intention to make some reasonably substantial changes in the form of organization to do the job that we have to do.
MR. MILLER: I think, Mr. Chairman, that the Honourable the Minister would be well advised to take the committee in his confidence as to what organizational changes are necessary. I agree with him; senior officials have been very substantially overworked -- there's no question about that. But I would be very interested to know just what organizational changes he proposes, and if they are reasonable, even if they are suggested by the Department of Organization and Methods, I'll be very happy to support him.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 23. Teacher Training - $624,935.00; Pass.
MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, regarding the student instruction or in the field of curriculum revision, I would like to ...
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd like to remind him that we haven't called it yet, because ...
MR. HAWRYLUK: O.K., fine.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4. Student Instruction (a) Directorate of Curricula; (1) Salaries. [Interjection] Sorry.
MR. HAWRYLUK: I would like to appeal to the Minister of Education on one aspect that I've attempted to do for the past two or three years and I'm speaking on behalf of many, many resolutions that have been passed at the Easter convention in which the teachers have deliberated many, many times regarding the subject of social studies. Now, I don't know how many years ago back, maybe ten years or more, it was decided by possibly a curriculum committee at the time to take both geography and history, which was taught as a separate subject at the time, and put them out into one subject known as social studies. And the teachers have never been satisfied with this at all because it covers a great deal of ground. And for the past, as I say three to five years at every teachers' convention that I've attended, and I've no doubt that you'll probably be able to read the records of it, they're asking for the teaching of formal geography and formal history, preferrably Canadian History, to be brought back as it used to be. Now, whether you have been asked to consider that, Sir, I just want to know whether you have an opinion about it.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, my opinion is in agreement with the general proposition that geography and history should be taught as separate subjects. I have never been particularly happy at the sort of idea of dumping them all into one bag and calling them social studies, I think there's a great deal to be said for teaching both subjects as separate subjects, and for teaching both subjects as well as we can. However, on this particular subject -- on this particular approach or the matter of the curriculum, the committee will remember that we are waiting to have the final report of the Royal Commisison which, it has been indicated, will have something to say about curriculum. I think perhaps we are not anxious to go too quickly into any changes there without at least knowing the views of the Royal Commission. And then while the present encumbent in the position of Director of Curricula or Curricula Director, Major A. M. Pratt, is doing an excellent job. Everyone, he undertook only recently subsequent to his official retirement as a member of the staff of the department, and it is our hope that we will have someone in this position as Director of Curricula who will be approaching the position with the views of, that is, once we know the views to the Royal Commission, and be in a position to make studies into what is good insofar as the curriculum is concerned.
One other thing that I'm hoping for is that in this whole subject of curriculum we will be able to work as a department with the Manitoba Teachers' Society, which has done some very excellent work already in the subject of curriculum and who have some excellent committees established on that subject, and of course, the trustees as well, because curriculum is something that must change, it's not fixed, it's something that must change as our society develops, and only by taking into account the views of many people who are interested in that subject can we keep our educational system up to date. And I do hope, because this, in my opinion -- subject only to the necessity of having good teachers -- the subject of curriculum is the next most important thing in my opinion in the whole broad field of education, even more important than the grants that are paid to school districts. And I hope that we will be able to make some substantial -- take substantial steps in that direction as soon as possible.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I confess that there are other members in this House that could deal with curriculum in a much better way and are more qualified to do it. But something worries sometimes a layman. A lot of time is being spent in the schools on history which is very essential. But I've read some of the history, not lately, but some years ago, the text books of my own children, and I found that although it was interesting, but as there is a limited time for history, I think perhaps other things can be substituted. What I have in mind is for instance the history of progress of labour in the last 92 years of the Confederation of the Dominion of Canada. We have for instance all this social advancement made by different Provincial Governments and Federal Governments in the last 50 or 60 or 70 years. Such as old age pension; we have the family allowances, mothers' allowances, hospitalization. We have a history for our children of the development and progress of all the social services and all the
social works in science too and many, many other subjects, I think, perhaps, that if the curriculum committee may go over the whole thing and not use the term that's used by so many members here tonight -- today -- no change in the previous policy. Why make a change? It doesn't matter. Why make a change? Take away the thunder from them. And everything they should do and you follow up, they say, well, it's a previous policy. Let's change the policy once in a while.
Now, let's come back to earth again. I understand that perfect English is good. God knows that I know better than anyone else. Grammer is necessary. Spelling is necessary. Other academic subjects are necessary. But I think there's a lot of time being spent on history; and a lot of time progress being spent in general in the schools, that -- well, perhaps it would be at least in the higher schools -- that could be more useful to them, than the curriculum they have now.
I have another problem - two problems: and one is, serious consideration, although we had a discussion of it today - we asked a question and the Minister answered. But that doesn't get us anywhere. I still think that alcoholic education in the schools is a necessity just as much as any other subject, with the exception of the elementary subjects - just as necessary - and I think time should be found - and I'm not really worried about it if the children have to stay in school another half hour. That doesn't worry me very much personally.
And there is another thing I think they should get teachers with, who understand social problems, perhaps mothers of children, psychologists, I think that in view of the great number of juvenile delinquency; in view of the great number that has been hospitalized -- of young girls at a very young age; and in view of the general situation, I think perhaps we could become sometimes a little more modern, and under proper supervision, suitable to the different ages of the children in the schools, I would respectfully suggest serious consideration to the teaching of sex education.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, on the subject of curriculum, I'm in hardy accord with the Minister that we at this time should not proceed with any extraordinary changes in the curriculum. I believe that that is a function, the consideration of curriculum, consideration of exams, consideration of various other things, is under the Royal Commission on Education and I think we would be very ill advised to make any far-reaching changes in our curriculum, and so I'm in hardy accord with the statement by the Minister. I realize too that the eminent retirement of the present encumbant doesn't create a problem because he understood full well when he took over that job that there would be no major changes.
I know, Mr. Chairman, that members of the committee will forgive me if I reminisce a bit. I came into this House in '37, a young man in -- I was elected in '36, but in the first session, the present Mr. Justice Schultz was Minister of Education and probably due to my youthful brashness I proceeded to give him good advice. I said, now why in the world should we have nine educational systems in Canada? Why can't you people get together? Why can't you people agree on the main courses that you provide? And I proceeded to lecture him and of course he is a very suave gentleman, and he said, well, he said "the honourable member has suggested something that I've given serious consideration to; the only trouble that I find is that everybody is willing to co-operate providing everybody else is willing to co-operate with the co-operator's terms, if you know that I mean." So I said, "well, there might be some difficulty with the east." I said, "for heaven's sakes get together with your colleagues in the west," and he duly reported to the legislature that he had carried out that suggestion, not of mine, because he was fully aware of the implications -- and the same thing prevailed there. I think he was in touch with B.C. B.C. told him, "we just had a curriculum revision this year and we'd be very, very happy for you people to accept our curriculum." So you see there are difficulties there, but I do think there has been some measure of uniformity achieved in certain textbooks. I'm sure the Minister's aware of that, and I think we should endeavour to follow through that principle of getting more uniformity in Canada. It seems to me that it would make for a better citizenship; it would make for a great lessening of difficulties, children going from one jurisdiction to another. And if that could be followed out, I would commend that action to the Minister.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister if there are any members of the Curricula Advisory Committee which receive salaries under this sub-item, and if so, how many? Or is this strictly an appropriation for the salaries of the staff - office staff and
the like?
MR. McLEAN: Office staff only. The amounts that are paid to the Advisory, the people who serve, for example, teachers on the various curriculum committees, are included in the sub-item (2) supplies, expenses, equipment, and those are only out of pocket expenses, they're not salaries in the ordinarily accepted sense.
MR. MILLER: I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough to give the ... Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister ...
MR. L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, going a little further than the Honourable Member for Inkster, I would like to ask the following question to the Honourable Minister for Education. Is his department interested in a program of crime prevention edcuation -- a program of education that would deal with methods to stop or at least to reduce juvenile deliquency, and that would also promote more knowledge of the important part the home must play in family life? In other words, a program of education for children, parents, and would-be parents on the subject that I mentioned. We already have the Alcohol Education Committee and the Minister stated previously that he was not -- his mind was not quite made up in this respect -- should the Temperance League keep up their work or should the Department of Education take over? I wonder if he'd treat the problems that I've discussed -- that I'm discussing right now in the same way.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, juvenile delinquency as such is really a matter under the jurisdiction of the Attorney-General's department, and I presume that he will have something to say about that when his estimates are reached. The answer so far as the Department of Education is concerned is that we have not, in my time, given any particular consideration to a program or studies that would combat or meet juvenile delinquency in the -- I think in the terms which the Honourable Member has in mind.
MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I think that's what is wrong in this -- right now we have this in the -- under the Attorney-General and I'm not talking about delinquents as such, but the boys and girls that could later on become delinquents. I think it's strictly education. I think that's the trouble, that we're putting them with criminals or would-be criminals too fast. I'm talking about a system of education the same as we have this problem of the Alcohol Education Committee. Well, you don't wait till the people become drunkards but you try to get hold of them before and teach them the importance, and that's exactly what I mean. I don't refer to people that already are delinquents, but to stop -- a program of educating the people and especially the would-be parents, the importance of the home and I think that the Attorney-General would have less to do.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, we mustn't forget that education is, after all, a total process as I think someone said the other day, and is for the purpose of teaching boys and girls to -- to prepare boys and girls for living -- and everything that is done in the way of educating boys and girls is in a sense something that prevents juvenile delinquency. That extends not only to the schools, but to the home and the church, and one can't say that it's particularly related to the prevention of juvenile delinquency; it's training for life itself, and it is to the extent that there is a problem of juvenile delinquency of course, it underscores the fact that in some respects our system of education is not doing its job, and the task of educators is to make education such as it will do the job and prevent problems of juvenile delinquency arising. It isn't -- if the Honourable Member is approaching it on the basis, "are we thinking of everything in terms of what will combat juvenile delinquency," I would suggest that's the wrong approach. If you say "are we doing what we can to train boys and girls for effective living in life", then that is our job. And it is our job to make the training we give them such as will encourage them to -- to give lives that are the opposite from being delinquent and to live useful lives, have lots to do that is worthwhile and good. It's a very difficult thing to separate out juvenile delinquency and say you're educating just to prevent that because that's not what I conceive a system of education to do -- although it will prevent it, if it does a good job and that's the job of any educational system.
MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, I think what the honourable Member from St. Boniface has had in mind was something more in the nature of child guidance through the schools. A sort of a child guidance clinic operated through the schools. Now I know a number of years ago in Selkirk we ... beg pardon ... [Interjection] ... I don't know ... I haven't
discussed it with him. Some years ago in Selkirk we did set up a voluntary organization, as a matter of fact it was started by the N.C.O. in charge of the R.C.M.P. Detachment there, and he worked in co-operation with the district nurse who visits schools with one of the psychiatrists from the mental hospital and with some of the social workers. And as the district nurse visited these schools, she found out if there was any behavior problems in any of the classes, and she would interview the parents, and as a result of the interview with the parents she'd get the parents and the child together before this group and they'd try and work out the problems, to find out whether that child's problem arose in the home or whether it arose somewhere else. And I believe that that -- that program, it was purely voluntarily, but I believe that that program did do a great deal towards preventing that child from becoming a juvenile delinquent, because the background that was found in each case was such, that it was very fertile for that type of child to grow into a delinquent; but by nipping it in the bud and taking the proper preventative measures, that child became useful and was no longer a problem in school. And I think that's what the Honourable Member from St. Boniface has in mind. I think you have the same idea too. It's not tackling it as a juvenile delinquency problem, but more or less of a child guidance problem which can be worked out and worked out for the general benefit of the community.
MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, that's what I meant and maybe a little more than that - the moral education. I think that an education is not just to give us a way to make a living but how to live, and I can't see how you're going to achieve that, and I agree with one of the members on the Government side that mentioned that it's high time this Government does something about reminding these people that are growing up, the importance of the home, their families, the churches also. And it reminds me of having seen quite a while ago a picture of a cent, an American cent and where they add, 'In God We Trust', but the word God was cut off, and it didn't make any sense -- it didn't make it any sense. And I think that we won't acieve that if we're afraid to talk about God, I'm not talking about any particular religion, but this -- I think that this moral education in Manitoba is sadly lacking in that and I think that -- I'm not blaming any Government -- this will take a long time, but I don't think that it's a joke or that the members should say, "Well, why didn't you do it when". I think that that's past, that's corny now, I think we should pitch in together and that should be above party politics and I definitely think we should do something about that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) ...
MR. GEORGE HUTTON (Rockwood-Iberville): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say a word or two on this. I agree very much with what has been said. Especially I agree with what has been said by the Honourable the Member for Selkirk, but I think there was one word he used which was the crux of the matter. He was speaking about a voluntary organization, and I think when you take the responsibility for moral behavior away from the individual and make it the responsibility of either a group through education and so on, that you're treading on dangerous ground. Because if we remove the responsibility for moral behavior from the individual and try to lay it at the feet of any department of the Government, whether it's education or the Attorney-General or otherwise, we are treading on very dangerous ground. I agree with him wholeheartedly that more thought must be given to this question of moral teaching, religious training for children. I'm not overly sold or -- that isn't the right word to say -- but I'm not out to try and convert all men to a certain religion, but I think in the case of children, we have a great responsibility and I think that as a people we should face up to it.
MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, that's fine, I agree with what has been said but let us remember not only the children that are fortunate in coming from good families but the thousands of others that don't know their father or their mother. If we leave it up to them I wonder where they're going to get this -- those priniciples, if they don't talk about that at school at all.
MR. HUTTON: The Honourable Member for Selkirk spoke of a voluntary organization that accepted this responsibility and I didn't gather from him that they were the parents of these children. I understand that the nurse was involved and a member of the R.C.M.P., and we have organizations all over this city, all over Manitoba that are interested, genuinely interested in this work, and I think if they received encouragement and help and moral support, that they could do a great job, a lot more than they're doing at the present time.
MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I agree with that. There's an awful lot of people
that mean well, but they certainly need leadership or they're not -- it's a fact that they're not -- if it's up to them they're not doing that well a job, cause there's lots of these kids that come from poorer homes, a lot of them come from good homes also, where it's neglected. It's all right to say it's up to the parents, but the parents aren't doing it, and the best way to do it is have a little more in school and maybe have an education program. We're not afraid to ask people that are getting married or thinking about getting married to pass any kind of test, make sure they're healthy. What about their minds, are they healthy, do they know what it means to become fathers and mothers, or what kind of a home are they going to give their children? I think that is just as important and that's it -- we're passing the buck, everybody means well. I agree with that statement, but we need leadership in that and I think that you need it in Government.
MR. GRAY: I have great respect for the Minister of Education. I think another year or two he'll take a greater prominent place in the life of education in this province. I think he's very able and very kind.
A MEMBER: Hear, hear.
MR. GRAY: And a man with this ability and interest in children should not pass on the responsibility to anyone else. That wasn't a question of the Attorney-General's department at all. The Attorney-General's department as already mentioned can perhaps improve a little of those, to rehabilitate those who are in trouble already. But I think the Minister himself should get interested to find out -- and it's very tragic to talk about it, but it's a fact, -- how many children are receiving treatment in the hospitals of venereal diseases; he's got to find out how many unmarried young mothers we have here. And even from the taxpayers point of view, it will save a lot of money if you save one child, you'll save the expense of maintaining that child and her child for years -- economically sound. How? I don't know, you're the Minister of Education. You get paid for it, I don't. So I don't know how, but my position here is to bring the problem up to you. I think it could be done. I think if you could get the right teachers with a lot of psychology, perhaps teachers who are ex-teachers, who are now mothers of children may be better, or people who have an interest, a social interest in their children. Now let's forget about the other curriculum, the other education. If they get -- if they need another year to go to school, let them go another year to school. This - we are dealing with human suffering, we are dealing with tragedies. I know one family that had to leave the city because the child made a mistake and perhaps the mistake was made because she did not have any guidance -- and many of the mothers do not talk to their children as mothers. They cannot, they're not intelligent enough perhaps, so they have to depend on the school to do it, and I don't think it's a hardship. I don't think it's a hardship, if you think that young children should not be taken into consideration at the moment, think, start from the age of twelve, start from the age of eleven, instead of them getting their education from other children or get their education on the street. So the idea is that this is impossible, somebody else can do it. This is not the answer. I would advise seriously to the Minister, I'm older than he is -- you are still young -- you can make a name of yourself in society by doing the -- actually this work in addition to the other work you are doing now so capable.
MR. STERLING LYON (Fort Garry): Mr. Chairman, I think I should perhaps interject a word at this stage because I know it was not the wish or the intention of my honourable colleague the Minister of Education to suggest that only this department is concerned with the question of juvenile delinquency or the other questions which flow from it. What I think he was intending to convey to the committee was this: that during the course of my estimates I will have some remarks to make in connection with juvenile delinquents, and in connection with the other 95% of the children in Manitoba who are not juvenile delinquents.
What I am suggesting is this and I think what he appreciates is this, that this is not the job of his department or my department, it's the job of the whole government and we are only beginning to see the outlines of what can be done in this field. And I am hoping to be able to report to the House some very small beginnings, very small beginnings, in this field and I hope that what I do have to report to the House will find the favour of them in this particular venture that we hope to start upon.
MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say first of all again that I wasn't intending to criticize the government at all in this matter. I think it is a thing that is changing,
and I definitely mean what I said earlier that this is something which should be above party politics, and I think that is the trouble right now. Like the Honourable the Attorney-General said, it's not under his department or another department, it's everybody's department. And that is why awhile ago I was the only one to vote against instituting another Board. I think there's too many of those things done. But I think in this case, the importance of this problem that we have - it definitely is a problem - I think this is one time we need, we should get together in this if nothing else, and either have a Board or Commission or another department and a Minister who would take care of all these things. There are so many things that could come into this, like the community centres. They are all people that mean well but without leadership, they could be very dangerous, and I think that the government , not at this session, but should at least study or name a commission of all members not only on the government side, to try to look into this important phase. And we don't have to follow the rest of Canada on that -- let's lead Canada if we can help our province. And as I say, that's why awhile back I voted alone because I think that we had too many of those things and when the time comes, we definitely need one like in this case, we seem to rely on people that mean well. If that was the case, if we are going to leave it the way it is now, it is not going to be done. And then again as was mentioned earlier that that should be left to the families. Well, if that was the case, there wouldn't be any schools because what is more sacred - what is more important than the education of our children? We feel that we can't do it well so that's why we have these schools. People that are qualified. And I think it is just as important, in fact a way more important to have this moral education of our children. It's all right - I think - there is very few of us know how the other half lives -- I know -- how many members have come into a house that is just a one-room shack with about eight kids, and they need a ladder to go into an unfinished attic and they all sleep together -- boys and girls, no education. They don't know what to tell them that is wrong or right so to try to help them, they put mitts on the boys hands. Well, I think that we should have a commission on this. I think that it's very important, and again I say I don't intend to blame the government at all but I say let's work on this together and let's try and have a commission as soon as possible or at least a study group to talk about these problems.
MR. HAWRYLUK: May I interject here? Certain people are making all kinds of condemnations about this and that not being done in our school systems. I would like to assure this House that in many of our schools in greater Winnipeg and some of the larger centres, and I believe in some of the rural centres, the principal and many of the teachers act as counsellors and advisors on matters of which you are discussing here tonight. Many of them are selected for that purpose to interview wayward children who do give trouble in school when most of the trouble is outside of school, especially when they have a problem in which the blame can be put at home. And I think I can tell you the work that has been done since I've been teaching. That the work of the - for example, of the district nurses, which many times I call upon them to talk to people and to talk to parents about their children. They are doing a wonderful job. They are doing a fine job. They've done a great deal to educate the parents, because in many cases it is not the education of the children that you have to worry about, it's the parents themselves that have to be educated. And then I have to say something about the child guidance department that operates in greater Winnipeg. They are doing an excellent job, and here we are making suggestions as if this is a backward province. What's the matter with you people? We've been having this going on for years and years, and the fact that these people have been doing their jobs our juvenile delinquency is probably at a very low percentage. Let's give credit where credit is due and not cry crocodile tears that we're not doing anything in this province! [Hear, hear. ] I also suggest probably through the efforts of our former Minister, after all some of this work did start when he was the Minister in regard to child guidance, and particularly, I think in the field of social workers. And may I say also that the teachers do their bit in the classes. We have the subject of health and biology. We have the subject of citizenship and we also have physical education instructors who also give some talk on personal care and possibly sex. The Home Economic department teachers do a great deal in that regard so I don't think we are doing a bad job at all. Possibly the suggestion made that we could go ahead and teach moral education -- to whom -- to twelve, thirteen, fourteen and fifteen year old boys and girls. You are going to have a problem there, a real problem. You can tell them what's right and what's wrong and that's the job of the principal and the counsellor, and they do it, and they've
been doing a wonderful job in this Province of Manitoba.
MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I certainly don't intend or didn't intend to insinuate that nothing was done in schools -- and I know there is an awful lot done -- but it's funny that the member of the C.C.F., who was so worried about wages and so on and everything going up, is not interested a darned bit about the moral education of the children of our province. [Interjection] ... Well, it looks like it ... because I'm not talking about ...
MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, I didn't make that remark at all. I'm sorry, I don't think I deserve that.
MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that this province is backward at all, I didn't mean that. But I still think that we should lead; not follow all the time. And I know a little bit about social work too. I have a sister that's done an awful lot of work around here and she is one of those, practically volunteer, she doesn't know where she stands. She has to cry to the government to get a little money to keep on going. She was in the Child Guidance Clinic. She did quite a bit of teaching and she also now is in charge of the mental health in this province. Yes, my sister -- I'm not talking of myself -- some of the others have -- I'm talking about things that are very important -- and I feel that those people need leadership and that they need help and they need encouragement. I am not insinuating. I don't mean that there's nothing being done, but I think that we can talk about all the subjects like that - there's a lot of things being done, but I think we're trying to go forward, not be satisfied with what is being done. And as I said, I'm not talking as a Liberal member, I'm talking as a man that is sent here to try and do a job and I think we should get together on that in this subject and I think it is very important.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to make much comment here, but I just want to pay a tribute to the young lady whose name has just been referred to, because the government is aware of what she is doing. As a matter of fact, the government has given her the encouragement that my honourable friend speaks of and we have actually made provision to give her particular organization much, considerable increase in financial assistance than had otherwise been the case. If my colleague, the Minister of Health were here at the moment he could give you more details but I want to make it quite clear that we are not complacent about this thing. I think the impression may have been created that we are complacent about it - far from it. We don't believe that we have all the answers and we don't believe that it's going to be centered in any one particular aspect of our activities as the Honourable the Attorney-General said. But we are not complacent about this. And in the short time that we have had the responsibility for doing something about it, we have tried to do something and we have done a little more than has been done in the past. I don't claim any credit for that because it is only what we ought to be doing, but I want to assure the House that the matter has not escaped our attention and we will continue to give it as much support as we possibly can. And we will welcome any concrete suggestions as to how we can improve our activities. I think that when the Attorney-General does report we will have quite a debate on this further because in days gone by it has been a matter which has been debated extensively. When the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains was over here, he can vouch for the fact that it was debated at some length, and his ideas and ours were outlined at that time. And I think that we'll have a constructive debate at that time. But I do want to say that the matter is not ignored by us - while we don't claim perfection for it, we have taken some steps forward.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, any matter that refers to the subject matters to be taught in the schools is generally referred to a committee known as the general curriculum committee, and I think it would be very helpful at this time if the Minister would outline the responsibilities of the general committee and the special committees, because any new subject that is introduced into the subject matter that is taught in the schools who are now fully occupied, should receive very, very serious consideration. I might say on the question of alcohol education, as I have mentioned before, that we had a very excellent pamphlet, if you want to call it such, prepared. There is alcohol education instruction in the schools.
Reference was made to another item which received considerable attention and that is the pamphlet on citizenship, incidentally, prepared by the same man who is now Dean of Education at the University of Manitoba, Dr. J. M. Brown. Now any suggestions that are made to the Minister will naturally be referred by him to the general curriculum committee for consideration, and I might say that in the past at least, any suggestions that I made to the general curriculum
were very carefully considered and if in the judgment of that committee or any special committee it was found possible to fit it in with the school program it was done. But I think, Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that many members are not familiar with the set-up that recommends, I think it would be very helpful at this stage if the Honourable the Minister would give the committee a breakdown as to how changes in curriculum occur.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, there has been no change in the general approach in this matter since the honourable member occupied the position which I now have. There is a general curriculum committee and there are individual curriculum committees convened to deal with proposed changes in individual subjects, and they are, the individual committees are generally coomposed of teachers and others who have a special knowledge of the subject in question. There has been no meeting of the general curriculum committee since this government took office because there has been no general change in curriculum suggested or proposed or contemplated. And again the reason for that is that when we have the final report of the Royal Commission on Education, we expect that they will have something to say about the subject of curriculum and the part in which curriculum committees can play in that work. But I think that by and large the work of the individual committees has been confined entirely to considering text books in subjects, but not any change in the curriculum itself because there have been none made since we have been in office. But if it were decided under the present system if - it were decided to make some changes in subject matter of the curriculum, that would be referred to the general curriculum committee who would make its report and advise its recommendations to the Minister. Whether that will be the system that will be followed after we have the recommendations of the Royal Commission, I am unable to say because I do not know what recommendations they will make in that connection.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, ...explanation. I was particularly interested that the Minister should give the committee an idea of the composition of the general curriculum committee because that would answer in part the challenge thrown out by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, the suggestions by my honourable friend from Burrows and so forth. Those who have been in the House some years ago will remember that we extended, we put a lot of lay people on the general curriculum committee, and this general curriculum committee is now, I might say, truly representative of public opinion in Manitoba. Every segment of interest is represented on that committee, which was not formerly the case, and I think that's a good thing, and therefore I think that any suggestions as to any changes in the instruction in schools or any subject matter might well be referred to the general committee by the Minister following suggestions such as has been offered by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, and I'm sure that any suggestion of that kind will receive very, very careful consideration. It is truly representative and I'm sure the Minister will bear me out on that point.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't going to take very much part in this debate but I thought that I should say a word or two in connection with it - particularly the words of my honourable friend from St. Boniface. Now I can appreciate quite fully his exuberance and his desirability of placing before the committee the ideas that he had. I well recall the first time that I sat in this House, the Honourable the First Minister and I teamed up, and it was my very first speech in the House, we teamed up on a matter which was to some degree at least, Mr. Chairman, as vital as the points raised by my honourable friends, though we were dealing with the question as to what the former administration was to do in respect to the Youville hospital over in Transcona. So I can understand the exuberance of my honourable friend, and while I'm sure that one or two of his remarks may have sounded a little out of place, that his heart was in the right place. And I would assure him that as far as we of the C.C.F. Party is concerned in the past, Sir, and in the future we will be doing our utmost to advance the moral well-being of all of the citizens of the Province of Manitoba and elsewhere.
Now a word or two in connection with the curriculum committee, the general committee to which my honourable friend from Rhineland made reference. We appreciate the fact that there has been that committee; but it is also a fact, I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the many of the lay people who were named to that curriculum committee were never called or very, very rarely called to a meeting of the committee. I can quite understand the Honourable the Minister of Education saying, with some justification, that since they took office, the general committee has not been convened. And I think that's understandable in view of the fact that we know that
the Royal Commission on Education will be reporting on the question of curriculum. But I would like to say this, that there would have been a greater likelihood in the past of many of the subjects raised by my honourable friend from St. Boniface had that general committee been convened more often. I have personal friends that were on that committee and they inform me that it was very, very rare that they were called to a meeting.
Now insofar as the points raised by my honourable colleague from Burrows - I know that it is a fact as far as the teaching profession is concerned in the Town of Transcona that they have had these matters under consideration and have been actively engaged in doing their utmost within their bounds of teachers, to impress upon the youngsters who are attending the schools in Transcona the proper way of conducting themselves in life. And as my colleague also pointed out that through our public health nurse attending our schools regularly, questions of health and matters related to that are brought to their attention. So I would say, Mr. Chairman, this to the honourable the Minister of Education, that there is a basis upon which, even in your department, Sir, that these matters are being given consideration. I agree, Mr. Chairman, with the honourable member for St. Boniface that there is room for improvement. After all, that's why we come here every year to see if we can't make some improvements in the general legislation and the laws of the province. But I would make this suggestion also to the Honourable the Minister of Education, but if as a result of their report and the deliberations of the government, it is considered advisable to continue the general committee of curriculum comprised as it is of lay people and professional people, that they convene that committee frequently in order to get the viewpoints of the lay people. I think that is one of the failings of my honourable friend during his tenure of office. Of course, Mr. Chairman, I know that we heaped coals on his brow many times before, it's not my intention to heap anymore. I think as a result of some of those coals that were heaped on him, he's sitting where he is today. But again I would say to the Minister of Education that if as the result of the report of the Royal Commission, it's deemed advisable to continue with a general committee on curriculum that that committee meet quite frequently and that the laymen be given an opportunity of expressing their viewpoints, because I'm sure that had that been done many of the lay people would have suggested concrete proposals for advancement such as those raised by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct an impression that the Honourable, the Leader of the C.C.F. Party left. First of all, I want to inform him that the Minister of Education is not a member of the general curriculum committee. Secondly, that I'm quite sure, and neither is the chairman of the committee a member of the department, because they select their own Chairman, and I know one thing, that if my honourable friend or I had been a lay member of that committee and had a particular problem to discuss with that committee and appealed to the Chairman to convene that committee, it would have met with an immediate response. And I don't think that my honourable friend's information is correct when he suggests that there was any reluctance of the general curriculum committee to meet at any time. I might say, for the benefit of the members, that that committee formerly consisted of professionals. Members of the University staff, teachers society, a few trustees and departmental officials. I think it was some four or five years ago when we appointed representatives from every walk of life -- from every walk of life. We had representatives of business, we had farm representation, we had representatives of labour and everything else.
MR. McLEAN: You didn't have any lawyers on it.
MR. MILLER: Thank God. That's why the committee functioned quite satisfactorily. Now my honourable friend the Attorney-General doesn't want me to make a major speech, I am sure, because he will probably say the people have spoken, and I will have to retort, "they will speak again", and I might even, say, quote Gen. MacArthur - you know what he said, "I shall return", and he did return. So let's not get into that. I do want to point out that there was a very forward step taken in appointing a substantial number of lay people to that committee, and if there was any dissatisfaction, the lay people should have addressed themselves to the Chairman of that committee or, in the alternative, addressed themselves and take that under consideration and I'm quite sure the present Minister would do the same.
MR. PAULLEY: My whole point, Mr. Chairman, is simply this. I again suggest to the honourable, the present Minister of Education that if there is a committee set up that he take
the leadership in calling that committee together. We considered a few moments ago or this afternoon or when the Minister introduced his estimates that question of leadership and he, if I recall, suggested - I don't recall the words as they were actually said, but if I recall correctly he did mention the difference between my honourable friend from Rhineland and himself is in that he is going to give the leadership without the leadership having to come to him. So again I suggest that one of the reasons I'm sure that the general committee on curriculum didn't meet is because of the fact that they didn't have the leadership of the Minister of Education in the former government.
MR. MILLER: I think that is absolutely the most incomprehensible statement that I've heard in this House. The suggestion always was - the suggestion always was, and my honourable friends opposite followed it, that we should set up these independent commissions, these independent study groups. The Minister shouldn't throw his weight around.
MR. PAULLEY: No, definitely not.
MR. MILLER: Certainly not.
[Interruption by a Member.]
MR. MILLER: What in the world...doesn't my honourable friend know enough about parliamentary procedure that you appeal to the Chairman if you want to have a committee reconvene? I mean, that's common sense. So why in the world does the member indulge in these trivial recriminations?
MR. PAULLEY: Oh, not at all.
MR. MILLER: Now if he wants to engage in an argument, let's hire a hall outside and debate it. [Interjection] ... and invite the membership of this committee.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, just as an aside, my honourable friend and I almost tangled on the hustings in Rhineland on a certain fee as a result of a trip up north that we took to Thompson.
The honourable member has just mentioned parliamentary procedure and it is perfectly true as he says that the committee was set up comprising a fairly broad composition of various spheres in our province - it's perfectly true. But after all, after having set that up, surely to goodness there would have been nothing wrong without any interference of the Minister to call the meetings or call the committees together and suggest that they should meet at certain times. Now we have had a lot of criticism here the other day from my honourable friends to the right, and some of it I agreed with in connection with the development bill proposed by friends opposite. They called it "window washing". I suggest that insofar as this curriculum committee...
A MEMBER: Window dressing, advertising.
MR. PAULLEY: Advertising -- they called it "window dressing". I suggest, Mr. Chairman, because of the fact that after having set up this committee with a lot of gusto about how we're going to get a broad field in which to give out guidance and then let it die, is just the same criticism that they feel is going to happen in respect to the bill on economic development proposed by my honourable friends opposite.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I think that that statement deserves an answer. I think the Leader of the C.C.F. Party, as so often, is way off base. Certainly if we set up a semi-economist body under a Chairman who is not designated by the government, surely an appeal should be made for meetings to that Chairman, and there are enough lay people on that committee to make it practically impossible for the Chairman to refuse.
And incidentally, if I might mention that little aside that my honourable friend the Leader of the C.C.F. Party referred to, the conversation we had up north, he wanted to run against me in Rhineland. And I suggested to him, I suggested to him, that I would pay a certain amount over and above a certain number of votes that he'd get and he was to pay me for every vote that was less. Now I suggest to him and for the sake of democratic government in Manitoba that he was very, very lucky that he didn't run because we would have been without the membership of yet another C.C.F. member.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, may I plead with him to abandon this line of self-exaltation that he has been following all afternoon; that he should stop trying to justify everything that he did when he was in office; that he should stop threshing old straw, that he should get on with the business of the legislature, and that he should stop having private fights with the Leader of the C.C.F. Party. We would like to get something dealt with in connection with the estimates,
and we are not really worried about salving the wounds of my honourable friend's ego.
MR. MILLER: Oh, I am so glad! ...so glad! I am grateful for the lecture, administered to me by the First Minister, and believe me, he deserved the same lecture when he was in Opposition, only with more justification.
MR. ROBLIN: I was a little more constructive than you are.
MR. MILLER: Well, I doubt that very much, because on that occasion he displayed his colossal ignorance of the whole examination board set-up. (Hear, Hear. ) He didn't know that there was in existence a High School Examination Board that even the Minister had no jurisdiction over. He didn't know; so I want to tell him that I do not propose to be lectured by even the First Minister on my former responsibilities as Minister of Education, particularly in connection with something over which I had no control. I don't take kindly to lectures, Mr. Chairman.
MR. ROBLIN: You're certainly good at giving them.
MR. MILLER: I would advise my honourable friend to let his colleague, the Minister of Education, answer for his department, and forego the inclination to jump up at every opportunity.
I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, from the Minister, something about examinations. Two examinations have been conducted since he was Minister. Has there been any improvement in the system? Has he investigated the powers and duties of the High School Examination Board? Has he investigated the possibilites that Manitoba might follow the example of Saskatchewan? Has he investigated too, the paper-setting committee set-up? Is he satisfied with that? Is he satisfied with the fluctuation in failure rates within a jurisdiction which is proud of the best system of teachers and the best system of education? I would like him to explain that, because, believe me, Mr. Chairman, when I was Minister, I was faced with those problems, and I was particularly chastised by the present First Minister, and he displayed his colossal ignorance of the statutes of this province when he accused me of being responsible for the conduct of examinations - when he knew full well that there was a statute which gave power to an absolutely independent board on which even departmental representatives were not in the majority. Did he spare me? And now he asks that I spare him? I am not going to spare him! Mr. Chairman, you know - you know, there is a song, "what a difference a day makes". I say to you, Mr. Chairman, that my honourable friend opposite, might well say, in paraphrase, "What a difference a year makes." A year ago they were on this side and were hammering everybody on the opposite - on the then treasury benches. Today they are saying "Let's get on with the business of Manitoba. Let's have not too much discussion. Let's fix our estimates in such a manner that they can be least understood." But it's there, the evidence is there, Mr. Chairman! And I am sure that you as Chairman of this committee must be thoroughly bewildered.
MR. CHAIRMAN: A little bewildered ... at times.
MR. MILLER: Now, as I suggested before, I am not a gambling man. I am not a gambling man, but I venture to say this, that even the First Minister, -- and he is a very clever and astute fellow, and keeps his colleagues under close control, and he knows what they are going to do, and is the Chairman of the inner "junta", but I venture to say, Mr. Chairman, that even he couldn't explain satisfactorily to this committee the meaning of these appropriations. And if he can, I threw out the challenge about half an hour ago, let him take over from his colleague, the Minister of Education, and then proceed to explain these estimates. And so I want to insist that the fullest possible explanation be given about examinations, because, believe me, Mr. Chairman, I had to give them.
MR. RIDLEY (Pembina): Mr. Chairman, it is very interesting to listen to all this tonight, but before the previous government did leave office, we read in the paper where they had changed the Minister of Education. Everybody wondered why. The more this debate goes on, I think we're learning why.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, that is something that one might expect from the Member for Pembina -- just the same as his action in voting against his own resolution the other day.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman ... (Order, please, order!) Mr. Chairman, on the subject of examinations, I think as a general comment that the honourable member is confusing two things, and while I wasn't in the House during the previous debates to which he has referred, that if he will recollect carefully, the criticism that was made was not of the Examination Board as though in some mysterious way the Examination Board was the reason for the results of the examinations,
but rather that the criticism that was directed at him was that the system of education itself did not - was not good enough to provide a high standard of scholarship in the schools, which was reflected in the examination results, -- and that that is, after all, the core or the issue, if one wants to discuss matters of examinations. Because examinations only relect the extent to which the system of instruction has been successful, and that is all that it means. Of itself, it is nothing. Now it is perfectly true that the Examination Board, established by statute, is responsible for the conduct of the examinations, and is, of course, statutory, and something separate and apart from the Minister of Education as such, and there can be - there is no question about that, and as I say the results of the examinations simply reflect the extent to which the instruction has been satisfactory in achieving its purpose.
Now I cannot tell the committee what difference there has been in the examination results. The examination results of last year were, of course, the examination results that followed the school term of 1957-58. The examinations that have been written since then have just concluded a matter of a day or two ago. They have not been marked, and what the comparison is, I am not able to say, and I doubt if any useful purpose would be served in comparing the two, -- but eventually they can be compared, if anyone is anxious to do so. The item under consideration of examinations is the item in the estimates which provides for the setting and marking of papers, the printing of the examination papers, and the supplies, expenses, equipment and renewals that are incidental to that work. And if there are any specific questions that the members of the committee would wish to know, I would try to supply the answers. I have here the names of the members of the High School Examination Board, - the rates of pay for those who set the papers and who mark them, and I have the results of last year's examinations, although, as I say, I am not aware that they would serve any particular purpose in quoting them, because I am certainly not in a position to compare them to any other year, and don't think it would be useful to do so.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, have you considered the examination set-up in Saskatchewan?
MR. McLEAN: No, I have not...
MR. MILLER: Well, for the Minister's information, I might say that under the Saskatchewan educational examination set-up, there is no participation by the University whatsoever; that the Department there, with the help of the teachers, set all papers, and there is no such thing as High School Examination Board. Now I am not suggesting that we should adopt that at all, but from my experience in the committees that set up the various papers, consisting of University representatives and teachers, specialists in their field, that in a great many cases it has come to my attention when I was in office, that the teacher representatives were not satisfied that the papers set, followed the course of instruction prescribed in the various grades. Now I am subject to correction on that; maybe some of my teacher friends can put me right. And that is one thing that I would like the Minister to look into.
I mentioned before, there is another subject matter too, which is under the direction and sole authority of the High School Examination Board, and that is the question of accreditation. I think that is a very, very important subject. I think the Minister should come to some conclusion on that, whether to continue it, or at least insist that the High School Examination Board, which has had this matter under consideration for some considerable time, -- finally report as to what their recommendations are.
MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, what the Honourable Member for Rhineland said, I think I agree with him wholly, that it's about time that the responsibility of setting high school papers should fall on the teachers who are qualified to do so. They are the people who teach the subjects; they have a thorough knowledge of it, and I think that there should be far less interference from the University teachers who are on that Board. I have nothing against the University people, but I think there has been a great deal of differences of opinion as to the type of paper that certain teachers want, and there have been clashes, and as a result many papers that have been set for many, many years have certainly not been up to par, or to the fairness of the children who have to write those papers. I think it should be definitely considered by the Minister of Education that the setting of high school papers should be in the hands of the high school teachers who have a thorough knowledge of the subject. Because they teach it, they have an idea what they want, and when they get together they will certainly set the type of paper that will be fair, understandable and accurate in the information that they desire.
The second thing that I would appeal to you, Sir, if we are to raise the standards in our examinations, I think that the Department of Education should issue instructions to the various School Boards in the Province of Manitoba, that under no condition should a child be given provisional standing as is being done today, and has been done for years and years, -- without the child being aware that that supplemental in the examinations they had, should be gotten rid of, -- because for the past ten years that I know of, we pass children into the grade nine, for example, on trial or provision, and yet in certain schools they don't bother at all making sure that that child will have to write off that examination as a supp. in garde nine. And that goes on into grade ten, and the result is that the child takes the indifferent attitude, "Oh well, I got away with a supp. in one or two subjects, and I don't have to worry about it." I think you will simply have to insist that that child will have to get that supp., and there should be a series of examinations set in the fall when they come back, or during the course of the year, that they will write on those subjects in order to clear their standing, and have a clear standing in Grade IX, Grade X, as the case may be. And if you don't do that, if you continue with this slipshod method, we are still going to get the kind of substandard results that we are getting today. There is no question about it. And I think that it is about time that we faced reality, and made those boys and girls realize that they can't get away with it, and they simply have to pass those supplementals, as done in University, the University makes sure that you cannot go on to the next year if you have a supp. And I think the same thing should be done in the Junior High and High School level.
And if you do that, at the same time insist that that child should get his results off, or his examinations off at some qualified summer school, with competent teachers and the courses given in a six-week course, - which they will have to pay for it, -- then I can assure you, honourable members, that you are going to find that these youngsters are going to realize they are going to have to work for the results that they get. But if we are going to continue as we have for the past 10, 20 years, we are just merely pushing them on from grade VII to VIII, VIII to IX, IX to X, and that way with supplementals from junior high up, then you are going to find that the results are going to be exactly as they as they are at the present time.
MR. ORLIKOW (St. Johns): Mr. Chairman, I am not quite so certain as the Honourable Member for Burrows that to take the representatives of the University off the Examining Board and leave it with the teachers, would solve all the problems, because they already have a good deal of feeling in the Universities that high school students who come to University aren't really equipped to do the University work. And if you take the University representatives off the Examination Committees, that certainly would be accentuated.
I do think, however, Mr. Chairman, and this I've heard from people who have been on the committees, both University people and high school people, that a good deal of the trouble arises from the fact that so many of the people who do the work of setting the papers and of marking the papers and so on, are people who are fully occupied in their professional capacity as teachers, and that they neither have the time or can devote the effort which should be done to the proper -- first of all, setting of the exam, and later of marking the exams -- and I think much more important, and this I am sure anybody who has met partents will say, will agree to -- a general feeling on the part of the public that there is not proper standardization of the results which are received in exams.
In other words, you talk with almost any parent and they are satisfied that their child may have gotten a certain mark in a subject marked in one school, and might be entirely different in another school. And I have heard more than one teacher, and good teachers, express the opinion that what is needed is inter-department staff that will help to set the exam, to evaluate the kind of exams -- help set the exam, the type of exams. People, not the present people -- people who would work on examination, Mr. Chairman, and people who would evaluate the kind of exams which are given, and would help evaluate the kind of marking which is being done, and I think that -- I tried to get up during the first item; I agree with what the Minister said that at this time when we are waiting for a report from the Royal Commission, that this is not the time to make major changes, but I do think that once that is in, that the whole question of curriculum and examinations should be given a good deal of thought, and I think that the staff of the department will have to be increased to do a much more adequate, and a much more equitable job, than has been done up till now.
MR. McLEAN: The recommendations which have been made by the last two speakers, or the suggestions that have been made, one, that the University people should be left off the setting of examinations, and by the other that they should be left on, indicates the fact that the position of Minister of Education will always be a very interesting one.
I would just like to point out that one of the changes that we are hoping to make, and it comes in with a suggestion that has just been made, is the appointment of a Supervisor of Research under the Director of Curricula, whose task would be to examine into this matter of examinations and the examination routine and the standards. And what the honourable member has said is quite true, and there is need for some close looking at the whole procedure of setting the examinations and of marking them, and of the standards that should be applied. We are very alive to that and appreciate the suggestions which have been made with respect to it.
MR. SCHREYER: While we are still on this item, the Minister has invited comments or questions regarding specific matters under this item. Now, I would gather from some of the remarks made by the Honourable Member for Rhineland that there is no effective liason between the Minister and the Examination Board. If that is the case, then I have nothing more to say on this item; but if there is some effective liason between the Minister and the Examination Board, then I would bring to the Minister's attention once more a matter which some members might think is trivial -- but which I think, and which probably many others think, is important -- and that is the matter of proof-reading of examination papers, because, surely, this isn't asking for very much, the services of one person for one day, possibly two days, to proof-read all the papers, because we should take special pains to see that the English used in these papers is flawless. And certainly the people who set the paper should not proof-read it themselves as well because they are more prone to miss some obvious errors.
And while still on my feet, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to raise another matter, closely connected with this, and that is as regards the teaching of guidance in the schools. It would seem to me that perhaps the most concrete thing that we can do at the present time -- a small step forward, but a step nevertheless -- is to require that guidance be examined, in grades nine, ten, eleven and twelve, because at present, as you know, there is provision made for the teaching of guidance at the grade ten level, but there is no examination on that subject, and consequently many teachers do not see fit to go into it quite as thoroughly as they perhaps should. So if the Minister is looking for a concrete suggestion as regards the teaching of morals and guidance in the schools, then certainly here is a small step forward that we might take. Make it mandatory that examinations on guidance be written at least once a year.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No. (3). Examinations. Sub ...
MR. MOLGAT: On the matter of examinations, I notice a very substantial increase there again. Could the Minister explain why that is up?
MR. McLEAN: The items under this particular section are setting and marking examination papers $140,000.00; printing examination papers $25,000.00; and supplies and expenses, equipment and renewals connected with that $5,700.00 -- for a total of $170,700.00. Now this includes the cost in connection with one examination in Grade eight; five in Grade nine; five in grade ten; and the usual High School examinations in Grades eleven and twelve.
Now, the increase in costs are reflected, or are caused by the increased number of students who are writing. The number has been gradually increasing and the number is increasing again, and the cost of conducting examinations has risen. One of the costs has been the rates of pay to those, not to those setting examinations, but to those marking the examinations. There has been an increase in the rate of pay which is paid to those who perform that task.
MR. MOLGAT: Could you indicate what the rate of pay is now for this?
MR. McLEAN: Yes, the rate of pay for the marking of Grades eleven and twelve: Markers - $19.00 per day; the Chairman - $23.00 per day; and the assistant to the Chairman - $21.00 per day -- $2.00 in each case.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, the purpose of two months' holiday for teachers is for them to get their holiday so that they be equipped physically and have a good rest in order to assume responsibility, great responsibility of the teacher for the coming ten months, if the teachers are assigned now to, for examination of papers -- Pardon? -- to mark those papers -- I take it they are teachers -- then you take away the idea of a necessary holiday from the teachers. In other words, they could work in the school, they don't get a rest, and now they work on the examination
of papers. I wonder if there is -- they don't have to, I know. I know they don't have to, but they do it. I wonder whether there is anyone else qualified to mark papers who are not occupied all the year around?
MR. McLEAN: I would think not in the numbers that would be required. It requires a very large number of teachers, as you will well imagine, to mark the examination papers, and while there might possibly be those not ordinarily engaged in teaching who would be qualified to take on this work, I would doubt that we could secure the necessary number of people without getting them from the ranks of active teachers. Of course, you will bear in mind that this is only perhaps something that lasts approximately two to three weeks, and the remaining summer is holiday time. It doesn't take the whole of the summer in order to do this work.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Would the Minister indicate what percentage of those that write supps, in the fall, pass?
MR. McLEAN: No, Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I can't give you that. I have the statistics for the passes and failures in June 1958 in Grade XI and Grade XII, but it is not indicated here what portion, or what part, refer to supplemental examinations. If that is - if the honourable member feels that he would like to have that information, I assume we can get it for him, if that's important.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister put on record the amounts that are paid to the teachers who examine papers? Can he tell us approximately how many are employed on that work during the summer months; and would he put on record as well the payments that are made to those who set the papers?
MR. McLEAN: I can put on record the second question. Setting the Grades VIII, IX and X papers - $15.00 per paper, and setting Grades XI and XII papers - $100.00 per service on the committee. These papers are set by a committee. The chairman receives $10.00 extra, that is over and above the regular fee, that is -- those are the rates. Now, the other question was the number of persons engaged in marking, I would have to get that information, I haven't it here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) - Directors of Vocational Education
MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, does the same committee set the supps as sets the June paper?
MR. McLEAN: Yes, they do set -- the Committee sets the paper, the regular paper and the supplemental paper.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) - Directors of Vocational Education. (1) Salaries.
MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, just a question. We have in the last year increased very substantially teachers' salaries and I'm all for that. I'm one of those who believes that vocational education is just as important as the regular matriculation education, for example, and yet if this was -- I would gather from this that there's been no increase -- there's certainly no increase in the total amount for salaries. Has there been any increase in the -- or revision of the salary rates for vocational teachers?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, these persons are the persons employed on the staff of the Manitoba Technical Institute and as such are members of the Provincial Civil Service and the increase, so far as they are concerned, is not shown here but is part of the item which is page 31 of the estimates, the amount which covers the increase for all civil servants, and the increase they have been given as members of the civil service, the same general rate of increase as has been given to other members of the service ... [Interjection] ... The staff at the Manitoba Technical Institute. They are all provincial employees. This does not relate to Technical or Vocational Education in the schools which are under the regular school system of the school districts. These are the people employed by the Province of Manitoba.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister -- this is a shared program with the Dominion and I know members of the Committee would be interested to know the various agreements under which this program operates, and I think too that the Minister might indicate that the people at the M.T.I. are not all full-time employees, that some of them work for a certain length of time and then are again re-hired. I think there is some connection there too with the Department of Labour whereby the use of some of these trades people, instructors, are utilized under the apprenticeship system. I think the Committee would be very interested in that because all agreements aren't on a fifty-fifty basis.
MR. McLEAN: You mean interested in the amount of the recoveries?
MR. MILLER: No, the -- I think it might be well if the Minister outlined the whole program. I think there is some four agreements or so.
MR. McLEAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I regret that I'm not able to give the details of the various agreements, but broadly speaking vocational education is conducted on a shared program with the Government of Canada. The Government of Canada is interested in vocational and technical education from the standpoint of the uptrading of people in trades who earn their livelihood in the various trades, and generally speaking they share to the extent of 50% in the cost of providing such a program. However, there are certain limits on the amount of money which the Government of Canada will pay, with the result that we do not recover a full 50% in respect of each item. If the members wish to look at the various items as shown on the estimates beginning with 4(b) - (1), and on down to No. (7), I can give the amounts of the recoveries under the various items. Item No. 1, that's really sub-item (1), is 35% or $72,600.00. Item No. 2 is 35% or $39,450.00. Item No. 3 is 50%, $86,090.00.
MR. MILLER: I wonder on that point whether the Minister could give some details about apprenticeship training. The compensation paid to apprentices and the follow-up by the department.
MR. McLEAN: Well, perhaps we could leave that until Item 3 is -- we have that Item No. 5 - 50% or $15,000.00; Item No. 6 is two items of $142,500.00 and $10,000.00; Item No. 7 is 50% or $6,250.00 for a total recovery of $403,800.00 under the agreements which we have with the Government of Canada.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) Salaries.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on this matter, where there's a shared program, who sets the type of program and who sets the qualifications for entry and so on? Do we or does the Federal?
MR. McLEAN: Well, we set -- the Province of Manitoba sets them but it must be approved by the Government of Canada -- by the -- it's the -- it's the Department of Labour in the Government of Canada that is directly interested in this matter.
MR. MOLGAT: On that matter of qualifications, I've had a number of complaints that in some cases the qualifications requested for purely technical courses -- oh, such things as servicement for -- on electronics and so on -- that we request too much in the way of academic training and a number of people who possibly could get through the course and get a job in that field are not qualified strictly from the academic standpoint. Could the Minister give us some details on that?
MR. McLEAN: You're speaking of people who take these courses at the Manitoba Technical Institute?
MR. MOLGAT: Correct.
MR. McLEAN: Well, what the honourable member has said is the first intimation to me that there was any difficulty in that matter and I'm -- say quite frankly that I -- I'm not aware of the problem prior to this time, but would certainly be glad to look into it. The -- generally speaking, the academic qualifications for entry are not what I would say high. I didn't know that there was anyone being fired on that account, or having difficulty in getting in on that account.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, if I may be permitted to explain. Generally speaking, that the Directorate likes to have a minimum of Grade X -- Grade X. I think it'd be interesting though, if the Minister would give an outline of the various courses offered, because there is some excellent, excellent instruction given at the M.T.I. and I'm sure the Committee would like to hear of the various courses that are being offered, and I might say too, that it might be well to inaugurate even more than has been done before of a publicity campaign in order to acquaint the youth of Manitoba, because courses are offered at the M.T.I., at a very, very reasonable fee, and in a great many cases during my tenure, I found out that some of our Manitoba youth succumb to the high pressure salesmanship of certain individuals who promoted technical courses which at a high rate of a fee which they might have had at the M.T.I. at a much lower rate.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I've sent out for the calendar of the Manitoba Technical Institute and would be glad to go over it as soon as it's here.
MR. MILLER: And would the Minister mind giving us an enrollment breakdown in each course? I know he gets them, I think, what, once a week or once every month?
MR. McLEAN: Yes. I didn't bring them with me tonight. I can get them.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether or not any of the city schools qualify under this to the extent that there is a recovery from the Federal Government? I mean, are any of these recoveries passed on to any of the city schools offering technical or vocational training? I have in mind, for example, Tech. Voc. Would that be equally qualifying, or am I a way off on that?
MR. McLEAN: No, Mr. Chairman, this refers only to the technical, or more properly speaking, vocational education which is given directly by the Province of Manitoba. The other technical education comes under the general grants which are paid to schools and there is no recovery in respect of them. The recoveries are all in relation to what appears under (4) (b).
MR. SCHREYER: I was informed at faculty this year that the Federal Government does make grants to those schools offering technical or vocational training. Now, I wonder if the Minister could tell us, tell us if this is the case or not?
MR. McLEAN: Well, I can only say what I've already said, that the grants are made in respect of the schools, any schools, which are operated by the Province of Manitoba. Now, if you want a specific direct answer to that I'll have to hold that because I'm not aware that any grants are made to any other schools.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, isn't it true, and I don't know, I'm not aware of any changes in policy, but there was a definite technical grant given to school districts who employed qualified technical teachers. Under the old formula there was the basic of $2,500.00, plus $1,250.00, plus $600.00 ...
MR. McLEAN: That's from us?
MR. MILLER: Pardon? -- that's from us, yes, yes, but I was just wondering what this item under (6) is, there's nearly half a million dollars and doesn't that apply to schools that are offering this technical course 50-50 and so forth, and so on?
MR. McLEAN: Yes, I think they are.
MR. MILLER: Is that right?
MR. McLEAN: Yes.
MR. MILLER: Has the Minister any information as to the number of schools offering technical education qualifying under this -- I'm anticipating now the item of a half a million dollars or pretty close?
MR. McLEAN: Well, are you speaking about Item No. 6?
MR. MILLER: Yes.
MR. McLEAN: Well, can we just wait?
MR. MILLER: Yes, that's fine. I just wanted to, in view of the question asked by the Honourable Member from Brokenhead, I just wanted to call the Minister's attention to it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Take them as they are, and then we come to that. No. 3 - Apprenticeship Training Rehabilitation ...
MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman -- Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say a word about apprenticeship training. I doubt very much whether the $6,300.00 increase is sufficient. I am well aware of the fact that $30,300.00 is shown in the Department of Labour estimates for salaries, but in total it only gives it $91,600.00 for apprenticeship training. I think we're all aware today of the shortage of skilled help. To give young people an opportunity today to do the things that they are best cut out and suited to do, is surely a very deserving work. There's nothing more pitiful to see a boy going to look for work and being asked what he can do, he says, "Oh, I'll try anything". He has no special training. We're talking about juvenile delinquency tonight, Mr. Chairman, and I'd suggest that apprenticeship training is one of the best solutions towards this problem. To take a young boy at 16 years of age and to put him into a trade where he has the aptitude and where he is going to be happy is certainly a desirable thing. Not only that, he comes under the guidance of older men who are well respected in their particular crafts, and I'm well acquainted with the apprenticeship training of the Canadian National Railways. I think that's a system that's second to none on the continent. The boy there goes back to school because, this question, I think, was asked tonight -- the boy has to go back to school where he picks up his mathematics to a reasonable standard, because after all, to be a
sheet metal worker or be attached to any of the crafts today certainly involves a need for mathematics. Everyone today is starving for recognition, you can see that in life no matter where you turn. When these boys that are in trouble are often asked by psychiatrists as to why they do these things, they always come up with the same main answer, and that is that they wanted recognition. They wanted to be somebody, to prove that they could do certain things; and certainly apprenticeship training would fill that important need.
Now the railways are well aware of change too, Mr. Chairman, because after all, this is a rapidly changing world, and in this age of specialization, it may be that some of the courses will have to be shortened, especially in the railways from five -- perhaps consideration will be given to shortening some of them. Now the railways in training apprentices are not only training them to do the -- perform the skills of that particular craft, but they are training them for supervisor positions. And as Dr. S..., that man of science, now hired as the Vice-President in charge of Research and Development for the Canadian National Railways has recently said, "The railways are now well aware of the fact that training is the all important work." Even we see men, older men who served their apprenticeships as boiler-makers, are now taking courses in diesel engines. So I would make an appeal and I think that this matter of apprenticeship training is of vital concern to every community. When a young boy has the opportunity to get into a trade of his choice which he has a liking for and which he has an aptitude for, I think we are well on the way to solving some of our social problems. And I was asked whether $91,000.00 ...as a total estimate for apprenticeship training is sufficient in this day of specialization?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass. Grants No. 6.
MR. MILLER: More, Mr. Chairman, I think that is a very interesting subject matter.
A MEMBER: We have just been dealing with the question of apprenticeship, Mr. Chairman, which is Item No. 3. I haven't got my glasses tonight, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You're right. It's 3.
MR. MILLER: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, the rehabilitation training is a very interesting program and I think the Committee should be apprised of the results of that program. It's a joint undertaking between the Department of Health and Welfare, and the Department of Education under a co-ordinator, and it's a very imposing program, and one that has proven itself to be exceptionally productive of good results. And I wonder if the Minister couldn't just give us a short run-down as to that particular program. I think he is aware that the co-ordinator is a Mr. Boyd -- [Interjection] -- No, no, no, the actual training is given here. -- [Interjection] -- No, but the instruction, with all due deference, Mr. Chairman, is given at the M.T.I. in a very, very excellent program. -- [Interruption] -- just for the benefit of the members of the committee. Incidentally, I must confess that I am familiar with the program. I know the ramifications, but I do think that the members of the Committee aren't aware of that and I think it's such an interesting program that he should give us a little education on it.
MR. McLEAN: The Minister of Health, will have a statement on that program.
MR. PAULLEY: I would ask, Mr. Chairman, in connection with this rehabilitation, at the M.T.I. Does this include cases that are referred from the Workmen's Compensation Board for rehabilitation after accident? I don't know whether that would come under the Department of Health and Welfare or not. I know that in the Province of Saskatchewan in connection with their Workmen's Compensation Act, or I believe, maybe the statement I know is a little too strong, but I am led to believe that in the Province of Saskatchewan and in some other jurisdictions as well, that under the direct auspices of the Workmen's Compensation Board, I think it is true also of Ontario -- that under the direct auspices of the Workmen's Compensation Board, they have rehabilitation centres which deal with the rehabilitation of accident cases.
Now I understand that a considerable number of employees of various industries in Manitoba who have been injured are referred for rehabilitation, and in many cases that have been drawn to my attention, there are great gains made as a result and others not so great gains when compared with their former earning power. It brings to me one point. If this is a case, and if these cases are undertaken on behalf of the Workmen's Compensation Board at M.T.I., is the cost of the program in respect of those who are injured in industry, is there a portion of that cost absorbed through the funds of the Workmen's Compensation Board? Because as we
know, in the Workmen's Compensation Board, there are provisions for it. Whether or not they make contributions in this item, I am not aware of, Mr. Chairman, but I do know that the Board is set up so that all of the costs involved as a result of accidents are absorbed by the Board and assessed to employers in accordance with the rate of accident incident. So I would suggest to the Minister, notwithstanding the remarks of the First Minister, that the Department of Health and Welfare comes in on the program -- we appreciate that -- but I think it would be of great interest -- it certainly would be to me and I am not aware of all the factors that my honourable friend from Rhineland might be aware of in respect of this particular item. But I am sure that there are others in the Committee who would like to know exactly what is meant by the rehabilitation training program which is conducted and M.T.I. Does it, or does it not include compensation cases, and if it does, is there an assessment to the Board for their assessment insofar as recovery of cost is concerned?
MR. McLEAN: The rehabilitation training is available, of course, to all persons who need it and desire it and are prepared to take it and that would include, of course, any person who was under the care of the Workmen's Compensation Board. That's the answer to part of the question. The answer to the second part is, that there is no recovery made from the funds of the Workmen's Compensation Board. The cost is included in, of operating this particular branch of the training, is here in the estimates, it is a charge on the Province of Manitoba subject to the fact that we recover 50% of it under the agreement with the Government of Canada. Now as has been indicated, this is a matter with which the Department of Health and Public Welfare deals more directly but it is included in these estimates because of the fact that by so doing it does qualify and is part here as one of the items on which we may make a recovery from the Government of Canada. In a sense it is conducted on the premises of the Manitoba Technical Institute and it is included in our estimates in order that we may take full advantage of the agreement which we have with Canada, but otherwise it is a matter which more directly bears upon the work of the Department of Health and Welfare.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, there is really more than that reason given by the Minister because we have at the M.T.I. excellent facilities and good instructors to promote that program, and naturally the Department of Health and Welfare haven't the the facilities that the Department of Education has.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister may have given this answer already, if so, it escaped my attention. Did he explain to the Committee the reason for the reduction from $50,000.00 to $38,000.00?
MR. McLEAN: Well, it's a reduction which arises because it is not expected -- it's expected that $38,000.00 will be sufficient to provide the training accommodation that will be needed by the people who come.
MR. CAMPBELL: ... on an estimate of the number that are going to use it, I suppose?
MR. McLEAN: Yes, it is.
MR. CAMPBELL: How do they know, how can they tell -- what evidence do they have of people coming up for training -- in advance?
MR. McLEAN: Well, of course, I suppose in the final analysis, one doesn't have an absolutely accurate estimate, but this figure is based on the experience of the past and assuming that we have approximately the same number of persons availing themselves of this program.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister what, if any, steps are taken as a follow-up of the rehabilitation, or would that be properly under the Department of Health?
MR. McLEAN: No. No steps so far as the Manitoba Technical Institute or the Department of Education are taken, but my understanding is that the Department of Health and Welfare does. The gentleman's name has been mentioned, Mr. Walter Boyd, whose particular duties are to assist these people to obtain employment and I do understand that they are quite successful in doing so.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, there is yet another thing. There is close liason with the National Employment office as my honourable friend knows -- in connection with all activities of the M.T.I.
MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, may I ask if this is the sub-item under which one may properly discuss the education of the deaf, blind, handicapped, and if not, would the Minister tell me under which other item it's submerged, then?
MR. McLEAN: It is under the Directorate of Special Services - item D.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (5) Youth Training Agricultural Homemaking Schools.
A MEMBER: ... What does that exactly entail, Mr. Chairman?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, it entails a school that we have at Brandon, a building that we have at Brandon, known as the Normal School when it was conducted as such, and at it, just as the name implies, agriculture and homemaking classes are operated throughout the year. There is included in this particular item, an item of $10,000.00 which is in respect of Nurses' loans; and also an item of $22,000.00 which is for bursaries and loans in respect of this particular type of training. The Agricultural and Homemaking School is used in addition by groups, particularly agricultural groups, who have conventions and meetings of that type, and you will notice just a little lower in the estimates item no. 8, it says "less board supplied to students $10,000.00". That is the recovery from groups of adults who make use of the facilities there and for which they pay the rate for the use of the rooms and the board which they obtain.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 5) - Passed.
MR. S. ROBERTS (La Verendrye): Could the Minister tell us how the Agricultural School has been faring? Has it decent enrollment and will it be carried on?
MR. McLEAN: I think not particularly good enrollment, Mr. Chairman. A number of very excellent courses are provided through the leadership of the Department of Agriculture, but the enrollment is quite low in many of the classes and some consideration has been given to the advisability of continuing it on the basis that perhaps the enrollment doesn't entirely justify what is provided. But no decision, no policy decision has been made to discontinue it as yet.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 5 - Passed.
6 - Grants.
MR. MILLER: I think this is the item under which grants are paid to school districts operating technical courses. I wonder if the Minister could give us some information on that?
MR. McLEAN: That is correct, Mr. Chairman, and I was in error in my answer to the Honourable Member for Brokenhead a few moments ago. This item is comprised of $15,000.00 bursaries and scholarships, $415,000.00 grants, which are the grants paid by the Province of Manitoba to the schools throughout the province who give the approved vocational and technical courses, and by having it under this item we recover 50% -- I'm not too certain this is item No. 6 -- I haven't the percentage here -- we recover approximately $152,000.00 of that under the agreement with the Government of Canada, so that to that extent Dominion funds do find their way to the schools although they come by way of the provincial grants because we make this recovery, and a small item called rentals of $4,200.00 to make the total of $434,200.00 in this appropriation. Now technical bursaries and scholarships together with some university bursaries are paid from this appropriation because all of the bursaries that are paid are ones upon which we may recover up to 50% of $15,000.00 under the Dominion-Provincial agreement relating to this item. The item of rent seems rather odd but it has to do with a unique arrangement that there is for the premises occupied, I believe, by the University School of Art, and by having it under this item we are enabled to make a recovery of 50% of the amount under this agreement.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister might indicate on what basis these grants wil be paid under the new arrangement. I'm fully aware of how they were paid before but because they were a certain amount for authorized teachers. I think the amount was $600.00 in addition to secondary grants and basic grants. Now what is the proposal under the new agreement, under the new arrangement and under the new salary schedule?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I haven't the regulations here governing the grants for vocational and technical education. I'll try and have that here tomorrow. However, there is not contemplated any change in the general principle -- if that's the right expression -- of paying them. The change is in the amount -- we're increasing the amount but by and large it will be paid somewhat on the same basis as before. I'll have to, however, defer until tomorrow the actual production of the regulations governing it.
MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, does that increase in the amounts account for the increase in the item itself or is there some other factors that enter into that? There is a considerable increase in that item.
MR. McLEAN: No, there are no other factors. The increase is the estimated increased amount of money to pay the grants on the scale such as we propose.
MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, besides the City of Winnipeg, which has a technical-vocational school and the M.T.I., and I believe there is one in Dauphin, what other school districts are providing technical-vocational training on a reasonable scale?
MR. McLEAN: There are quite a number in the province. Brandon, Portage la Prairie, Neepawa, the ones that you have mentioned, Dauphin, which is always a leader in any educational venture, and the City of Winnipeg. Of course, all of the schools do not offer the same courses, of course, as you will appreciate. For example, a very common course is the commercial course which is offered perhaps in many schools where they don't offer other vocational or technical courses, but I would say that the number of places is reasonably large and will definitely increase. Our information is that many of the school divisions are immediately setting about to have the vocational courses given again; perhaps the first emphasis will be placed on commercial courses, but I would expect that it would expand into the others as well.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us any information as to the courses presently offered by Dauphin-Ochre which come under this arrangement?
MR. McLEAN: Well, the shop courses, the homemaking course, the commercial course, and agriculture was given but was discontinued because there were no students in the course.
MR. MILLER: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, too, that under this item, this is the item under which grants are paid to those school districts and I know there are a great number who offer technical instruction as the Minister has suggested on a 50-50 basis. 50 academic and 50 technical, I think. Is that correct? Is this the item?
MR. McLEAN: Yes.
MR. SCHREYER: I'm wondering if it wouldn't be false economy on the part of this government not to advertise the information among the newly set up division boards, namely the information that grants with respect to technical and vocational training for education are 50% recoverable from the Federal Government. The reason I ask that is because it was said at the Faculty of Education this winter by one of the faculty members, that at least he felt that a good many school boards did not know of this fact. I realize, of course, that prior to the setting up of the division board that most school districts couldn't provide the facilities but now that it would be possible, doesn't the Minister feel that perhaps some amount of advertising should be done in order to encourage school divisions to set up technical training programs?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't really think that advertising is too necessary because if there is any school division trustee in Manitoba who doesn't know this money is available, he must be deaf and blind and several other things; and not only that, but the school inspectors are very much aware of the grants and their source, and I wouldn't think that there was any problem about the fact of the grants being available. If there is, we would certainly be glad to do anything we can about it -- but it is pretty widely known through the people directly concerned.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 6 - Passed. 7 - Additions and alterations to existing buildings. Passed.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister -- just a minute, just a minute, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give an explanation of this item?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, for a number of years it has been customary to make certain alterations and improvements to the building, that's the Manitoba Technical Institute which, as the members of the Committee know, is situated on Portage Avenue in Winnipeg. This is a building which was, I believe, formerly owned and used by the Ford Motor Company and was acquired by the Province of Manitoba some few years ago. A program has been instituted to, as I say, make certain improvements. For example, the putting of glass blocks in the windows and it is proposed to continue that same program this year doing approximately the same amount of work as was done last year. Actually on the left hand side of the estimates a figure has been omitted. The figure there should be $10,850.00, which was the estimated amount last year and we estimate $12,500.00 for continuing that sort of general program this year.
MR. CHAIRMAN: 7 - Passed. 8 - Less board supplied to the students.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we leave this whole item. Did I understand correctly that the Minister was to bring in the calendar and give us the details on this?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, now this is quite an extensive booklet. Do the members of the Committee wish me to read it all?
MR. MILLER: Supply them with a copy.
[Interjection by serveral Conservative members: Read it, read it. ]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! Order!
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister is anxious to read it, let him read it tomorrow.
[Interjection by serveral Conservative members: Read it, read it. ]
MR. PAULLEY: Carry on.
MR. McLEAN: Perhaps just briefly, I might indicate that these are divided into apprenticeship courses, commercial courses, drafting courses, industrial courses, metal work courses, specialty courses, radio, television and electronics, teacher training courses, then of course evening classes in the various subjects. Now, for example, just as a matter of interest, in the specialty courses we have a course for an assistant hotel cook. General ... [Laughter]
MR. MILLER: ...free course. Very good one.
MR. McLEAN: I'm coming to that in just a moment. General cooking, meat.
MR. MILLER: The food's good too.
MR. McLEAN: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I should file these, but one other item of information just at that point. For the week ending February 27th enrolled in the day classes were a total of 758. In the evening classes a total of 400. And in the day classes, auto body repair, auto repair mechanics, bricklaying, carpentry, commercial, cooking, diesel mechanics, drafting, architectural drafting, mechanical drafting, electrical appliance repair, motor winding, electrical construction, hairdressing, industrial arts, machine shops, painting and decorating, plastering, plumbing, practical nursing, radio servicing, refrigeration, related subjects - that is related subjects to refrigeration, sheet metal, television electronics, upholstering, watch repair, welding, electric arts, welding oxyacetylene, woodworking, radio operators, pipeline welding. And those were the general courses in which the students were enrolled. The enrollment, the actual enrollment of course varies, because many of these courses are of just a few weeks duration, but generally speaking the total enrollment in any particular time is in the general neighbourhood of 750 as indicated here, and the evening classes run about the same.
MR. MILLER: Hear! Hear!
MR. K. ALEXANDER (Roblin): I would like to ask the Minister if there's not a course in window dressing - I think maybe we need one.
MR. McLEAN: That's right.
MR. PAULLEY: Oh, you don't need that.
MR. MILLER: No doubt that will be made available by this present administration.
MR. ROBERTS: Would the Minister tell us if this enrollment -- the figures you gave us -- is that an optimum number or is it too low or too high compared to the facilities at the M.T.I.?
MR. McLEAN: The number enrolled is pretty well the capacity of the present institution. It is operating at its full capacity for the most part. Now there may be the odd week when they could take in a few more students but that doesn't occur too often.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, I would like to ask the First Minister to have the Committee rise because if we do it, he won't agree to it. We cannot finish this estimate in an hour because I, myself, have a few very important questions to take up, and I would like him to ask.
MR. ROBLIN: I don't think the committee wants to sit much beyond 11 o'clock, Mr. Chairman, but I would expect us to finish Item 4(b). When we have done that, then I would suggest that the Committee could rise.
MR. PAULLEY: 4(b) - what is that?
MR. ROBLIN: 4(b) - the one we're on now. Vocational education.
MR. PAULLEY: Oh, I thought we did.
MR. ROBLIN: No, we haven't. I haven't heard the last two items called.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to hold this up at all, but my actual question in regards to the courses and the question of qualifications. What are the entrance requirements for those courses? Is it one entrance requirement for all of them or does it vary with the courses?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, requirements for admission. "Each candidate for admission must make a written application and present a transcript of the marks he received in his last completed grade of academic schooling. In cases where the candidate makes application while still attending school, a copy of his last term grade signed by his principal will be acceptable. All candidates for admission must be of good moral character, of good health, and must be 16 years of age or over. Although a complete high school education is desirable, it is not essential in all courses. Minimum requirements have been laid down and are indicated in the course outline. Where an applicant does not possess the required formal educational standards, an opportunity will be offered for mature persons with practical experience and a reasonable educational background to enter classes if, in the opinion of the principal of the institute, the student is capable of doing the work satisfactorily."
MR. GRAY: Can I ask the Minister a question on this, Mr. Chairman. He said "moral character". I think those who are not of moral character are the people to be educated.
MR. MILLER: They give academic instruction as well, Mr. Chairman, don't they, Mr. Minister?
MR. McLEAN: Yes, they do. Well, I don't know, of course, the term "moral character" is rather an indefinite term in a sense and perhaps that refers to honesty and ...
MR. GRAY: Those are the classes of people that should get educational training ...
MR. McLEAN: Those who haven't moral character?
MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) 8 - Passed; (b) 9 - Passed; Total $633,775.00. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions and requested me to report the same and ask leave to sit again.
MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Winnipeg Centre, that a report to the Committee be received.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion, and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.]
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that the House do now adjourn.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.]
MR. SPEAKER: The House do now adjourn and stand adjourned until 2:30 tomorrow afternoon.
Page revised: 1 January 2012
