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Committee of Supply
| Page | ||
| Executive Council, Libraries and Historical Research ........... | 285 | |
| Registrations and Elections ............................................ | 285 | |
| Royal Visit .................................................................... | 293 | |
| Libraries and Historical Research (Returned to) ............. | 297 | |
| Treasury, Mr. Roblin, Statement ......................................... | 305 | |
| Mr. Campbell, Mr. Roblin, Mr. Gray, Mr. Roblin .......... | 306 | |
| Mr. Miller, Mr. Roblin .................................................. | 307 | |
| Administration .............................................................. | 307 | |
| Consideration of Interim Supply debate ......................... | 315 | |
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 5. Libraries and Historical Research (a) (i) Salaries $26,400.00.
MR. MILLER: Will the Minister in charge - this is a very important sub-department - the Minister in charge wouldn't want to give the committee a resume of what has been happening in the past in this connection and his hopes and aspirations for the future. I take it the Minister of Education is the Minister designated because I too would like to make some observations here.
MR. ROBLIN: Well, the Minister will be here any minute, Mr. Chairman. He doesn't have to - he's not worried about items 6 and 7 - Registration and Election and Royal Visit. If we might have the indulgence of the committee to go on to those we could come back to libraries when he turns up. He'll be here in a minute or two.
MR. MILLER: That will be satisfactory.
MR. GRAY: I wish to ask a question under this library.
MR. PAULLEY: No, they're going to leave that.
MR. GRAY: I'm not interested in the historical but in the libraries. Are you leaving the whole thing?
MR. MILLER: We're leaving the whole thing.
MR. ROBLIN: The Minister will be here in a few minutes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 6. Registrations and Elections $320,000.00.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, on this item I would like to make a comment or two, and the one comment I wish to make I'm sure might find favour with the honourable friends to my right. They quite frequently accuse us of being spendthrifts and ready to go along with any expenditures, but I notice this is a very considerable item of $320,000.00 for the election, and I presume it all has to do with the elections which have just been held. [Interruption] No, it wasn't worth it. Now I don't know...
MR. ROBLIN: I certainly hope my honourable friend is right.
MR. PAULLEY: Now I don't know ... Pardon?
MR. ROBLIN: We could do without any more for the time being.
MR. PAULLEY: Yes, well I'm not going to fight the last election insofar as the campaign itself is concerned, Mr. Chairman. That may be necessary as we proceed in the debates in the legislature but the point I want to raise is this - now in our Election Act, as I understand the Act, there are provisions for enumerations and the printing of voters' lists and that those lists can be used under a period of two years. In other words, if the lists are not over two years old they can be used rather than have another enumeration and another printing of the lists, and I would like, and I haven't the figures before me of what it actually costs for the second enumeration or rather, Mr. Chairman, for the enumerations of the May 14th election and also the cost of printing the electors lists. I raise that point because of the fact that less than a year prior to that time we had an enumeration and we also had the lists printed, and I would suggest that it was not necessary to make the expenditure for a new enumeration and a new printing of the lists. Now we have been conducting in many of the constituencies a sort of a plebiscite, or call it what you will.
MR. MILLER: Study.
MR. PAULLEY: Study - thank you, Mr. Miller - study into election machinery, and while I wouldn't accuse anyone of dereliction of duty, it does appear from a survey that we have made at the present time, and I might say, Mr. Chairman, it's not conclusive at the present time, that in many cases or in some cases enumerators used the list of the year previous in compiling the list for the last election. We find on a survey this is true, or appears to be true - should I say in quite a number of constituencies because when we compare the voters lists of this year we find, in many cases, the same names were omitted as they were in the year previous. We found in the lists of voters of this year many people - I shouldn't say many - a number of people who had moved just after the lists were prepared for the election of a year ago. Now I must confess that our studies are not complete as yet but it
does appear to me, Mr. Chairman, that a lot of that was done. Now I would like to know of the administration why they felt that it was necessary to make this expenditure for enumerations and the lists when there was such a short period of time in between the elections.
Now I can appreciate the fact that in some areas, particularly in the suburban areas, there is constant building and changing of hands of property and people moving in and out, but I wonder whether or not this expenditure, or that part of this expenditure for that purpose, was justified. For as I say, Mr. Chairman, we have found in our survey that there was a considerable number of people still left off of lists. In some of the newer built-up areas there were still whole sections, whole streets left off of even the new lists and I would like to hear a comment from the government side on these points. There may be others that will be raised later on in the session in respect to our whole election machinery, but I think it is very vital that we should know that and as I said at the offset, while my friends on the right sometimes criticize us because we are ready to make expenditures of many natures, I think that in this particular one the government could have saved the taxpayer of the Province of Manitoba a considerable amount of money.
MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman, the problem as I see it - is not a political problem. I think this problem, the enumeration, has been common to all political parties and in what I have to say I'm not making any charge against the government. The same charge, if it could be called a charge, could be made against the previous administration, but I feel that there is something lacking in our present system of enumeration. Now our present system of enumeration depends on the honesty, the sincerity and the conscientiousness of those people whom we employ as enumerators, and in spite of the safe-guards of posting up notices, showing the lists as made up by the enumerator, the general public has a general apathy towards even checking those lists to see if their names are on. But I have found in the last election that in two polls in my constituency the enumerator used the same list as was used in the June '58 election, only he made this mistake, that he didn't even add the names that had been added at the Court of Revision at the previous election and he missed off the same people who had been missed off in June, 1958, resulting in these people being so angry that they wouldn't agree to be sworn in and were consequently disenfranchised. Now I know it's a real problem and I know that this House in previous occasions have studied this problem to see if there is any alternative method that could be found. Now I don't know whether the answer lies in adopting the American system, which at one time was the system in Manitoba, where people had to go and register themselves, whether that system would be any better or not, but evidently there's soemthing wrong with our present system of enumeration. I don't think it can be entirely charged to the enumerators themselves. I think the general public have to be blamed. But it would appear to me though that the question of enumeration is something that's worthy of study to see if we can't adopt some system in Manitoba which would ensure less mistakes being made in the lists that have been prepared in the past.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I have no ... some day. I have no objection to the expense of an election in order to maintain democracy. Our criticism is while we spend money to make the things correct - and may suggest something which perhaps is not advisable but it's only my own opinion - one is to pay the enumerators by the day instead of by the name and take a chance of them loafing around for a while. I think in the long run they'll do their job right. Secondly, if possible, to have two enumerators go in the same way. I think it'll be easier too and they could do their job quicker; and third suggestion is, I don't know whether it's a good one or not but it should be considered - we have a long time before the next election - is whether you could open up stations not too far away from those who want to register, say not just one in each constituency, perhaps five or six offices or stations where the people should register themselves. I think perhaps this has never been tried out. Chances are that that would create a better interest for the people to register in order for them to know that they have the right, by some propaganda to show them that if they want their party to win or if they want their man to win, and for the purpose of maintaining our democratic system of life, that they should be interested sufficiently to go and register. I would suggest a penalty perhaps I would be in favour of it, a penalty of those who do not register without showing good cause why they did not go to register.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I think that in the session immediately after the election, and while we are a long way away from the next election, it is probably a good time to discuss this calmly and cooly and without any getting very heated. I don't think anybody here would suggest that mistakes which were made in the election were made deliberately but undoubtedly there were mistakes made. We have a case which I'm sure will be brought here, where a man was left off the list where he brought two people to swear for him, and after a whole day of trying to get on he was told at five minutes to nine that he needed four people to swear for him, which is not according to the Act and didn't get to vote. We have many people who were left off. Somebody gave a suggestion they should have used the '58 list. Well, Mr. Chairman, I happen to live in the First Minister's constituency and in '58 I was on the list. In '59 the house in which I live, which has 8 voters, and the house next to it, which has probably 6 or 7, both of them were left off. I don't know how many votes the First Minister lost or gained on that exchange, but this is not very good to say the least.
Now, in some ways our Act is much better than the Federal Act. It certainly is better in terms of people who are leaving the city and who want to vote in the advance poll, but it's not as good, and I'm speaking from memory, as the British Columbia Act which - as I remember it - permits a person who is anywhere in the province on the day of election from going into a polling station and registering his vote and having it mailed to the constituency in which he lives and I think, Mr. Chairman, that in view of the large number of complaints, which I'm sure every member and every candidate got - I know that I spent half the day on election day taking people to get them on to vote. And incidentally, Mr. Chairman, there's one other complaint which we had. A number of people had the slip, the receipt or whatever you call it, which showed that the enumerator had taken their name and listed them, but they weren't on the voters list and, therefore, they were not permitted to vote unless they got two people in their poll to swear that they actually lived where they said they did. I think that all these complaints, and I'm sure that government members, since they're more of them on that side than this side, probably have more complaints than we have. I think all these should be looked at and studied with the view to getting some of the wrongs righted before the next time we have an election.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering, in view of the ever-increasing number of complaints following every election, whether it wouldn't be appropriate to have this whole matter referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. I think that if there were common consent, we might arrive at some solution which would do away with a great number of these complaints and the committee might well come to the Legislature with a recommendation that certain changes be implemented.
MR. R. O. LISSAMAN (Brandon): I think the biggest part of our problem is that in this day of comparative prosperity and relatively full employment, we've a great deal of difficulty getting people available to enumerate who are not regularly employed and who have the abilities. Certainly I've seen people enumerating who were past the peak of life and it was really questionable if they were capable. It's the matter of getting the type of people to enumerate that's becoming increasingly difficult as we have full employment.
However, that wasn't the purpose of my rising. I would like to suggest to the House that a great number of people in the province are disenfranchised at the time of election simply because they happen to be in hospital and I don't see anything that would stand in the way of having one or two movable polls where they could go around and visit the beds in the hospital and enable the people in hospital to vote. I know there are a lot of very good citizens who place a high value upon their right to vote who were denied voting just simply because they were in hospital. I remember when I first came in the House one previous objection I've had to The Election Act, and I thought it might be a good thing at that time, that representatives from both parties go out and enumerate as they do in the urban centres. I remember I made the complaint and received some nice smiles from the Cabinet bench when I suggested that some of the enumerators who had gone around at that time had done a very good job for my opposition. However, I found as the years went by that if you've got a good product to sell, you don't need to worry about the opposition.
MR. R. G. SMELLIE (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Chairman, I was somewhat surprised when this debate began to hear the Honourable Leader of the C.C.F. Party complaining about a system which distributed money fairly evenly throughout the whole of the province and placed
it in the hands of the common people. However, I agree with him that perhaps enumerations are not absolutely necessary, particularly when elections come so rapidly as they have done in the past two years. I was about to make the suggestion that this matter should be referred to the Standing Committee of this Legislature when the Honourable Member for Rhineland rose to "steal my thunder". There is one suggestion, however, that I would like to make and that is that it is my understanding that municipalities prepare annually an electors list and that that list could probably be used to -- or rather for a provincial election in many constituencies where the electoral division boundaries and municipal boundaries are very nearly the same. And if there is going to be a study of the matter by the Standing Committee of this House, I would suggest to them that they look into the matter to find out whether or not it would be feasible to use the municipal lists which are already in existence.
MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr. Chairman, I have a few observations on this particular item as well. It would seem that, at least some people are of the opinion that municipal lists could be used, however, there would be considerable reivision necessary and that would perhaps rule out the advisability of adopting that approach. And insofar as the statement made by the Member for Brandon when he said that there weren't enough people -- it was hard to get people qualified to do the work, I would like to say that at least in my constituency, the constituency of Brokenhead, there were a lot of people who could have done the work and indeed the previous year the people who did the work did it very well. Granted they were Liberal-appointed but they did the work quite well. However, they were all replaced, by people who didn't do the work very well, and so I would just like to point that out.
MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, I would be remiss not to make some comment because I was definitely asked at the time of the election by some of my constituents to bring it up at some particular time, but I just want to give you some idea what happened in my particular area, as an example, which is an old area - no new homes at all. And in a particular school which had two polls - I happened to visit it twice and I was surrounded by a couple of people that were quite perturbed and angry for the fact that they weren't on the voters list - and so on checking the previous year's list in that particular school I found over 216 names - 216 names omitted in that one school. Now to me that sounded ridiculous. On checking I got some information, and the trouble appeared to be no reflection on the fact that the Conservatives at this particular time had the privilege and had the right to pick their own deputy returning officers - that's their privilege and I suppose any government in power would do the same thing - but I still think, and I'd like to reiterate - reiterate the fact that the people that were given that particular position, I think, should have been given instructions. Also, the people who were asked to enumerate certainly should have gotten together and given definite instructions as to what the procedure should be and I think that in future - I'm talking about Winnipeg as a whole - there are certain sections of Winnipeg that are very consolidated with large numbers of people living in rooming-houses and the result is that if you send a woman in there, and most of our enumerators in the city were women, you find that many of them just -- in many cases never bothered or just absolutely refused to come back a second time. And I feel that the people who did appear at this particular school had a grievance and it certainly should be rectified. Two enumerators are valuable because where one person will be timid about entering a home by herself, two of them probably will feel that they have a little more support. And as I said, this applies to certain sections of Winnipeg where you find that an individual would be a little afraid to enter a certain district for fear of abuse of some kind. And I think this is important. I'm talking about the City of Winnipeg. And not only that, on checking the whole district of Burrows, I found over 400 names omitted from the previous year's list. And I think that's something that could be kept in mind and something that will be rectified, no doubt, but I still think that two enumerators would be a very good idea.
MR. J. COWAN (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Chairman, one of the things that we ran into quite often was this - that the enumerator went around - they came to a new block, they came to a person that had just moved in, well, they hadn't been a resident of the constituency for three months so they couldn't get on the list. They were supposed to get on the list back in the constituency that they moved from the previous month, but there was no one in the other constituency to put them on the list and so they got on no list, and that happened in a number of cases.
If we had perhaps an Election Act provided that the residence of the person where they lived on the day the writ of election was issued would be the residence in which they would be enumerated, then we would be able to help out that situation. And then there's this question about people having slips and not being on the list. Well, the person didn't evidently write the name in the book at the same time as they gave the slip, but if those slips were made out in duplicate and they gave them one copy of it and they kept the carbon copy, then there wouldn't be any question when the list was typed out that they had a complete copy of all the slips that were given out. And the other thing that we might do in the future, I think, is this. We might try and advertise just as widely as possible that the enumeration has taken place in the City of Winnipeg during the week of such and such to such and such. If you didn't get a slip at your house, it is most probable that you were left off the list. You can get on the list by coming to the Court of Revision on such and such a day at such and such a place. Because many, many people, they've been living in this constituency perhaps for 20 years, 30 years, they never -- they think that it's horrible that they should -- they think it's impossible that they should ever be left off the list because they've been living there so long and they never dreamed that they should be left off there because, after all, they've lived there for 30 years and they've always been on the list before and yet when they come down to the polling place they find they've been left off. And if it was advertised quite widely to these people that the enumeration has taken place in such a week and if there's been no slip left at your house for you, you're quite likely not on the list, then the people would perhaps get out to the Court of Revision.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, just one more suggestion I omitted to make. This does not apply to me at all because I shall not go through another election, but I had been asked by certain parties - I did know them personally - experienced enumerators to get a job, and I phoned the returning officer and gave him the names, I did know them personally. He said they were only taking enumerators from the constituencies where the enumerators lived. I think this is wrong because there might be others who do not live in that constituency and they could do the job better. In other words, when selecting enumerators, I don't think it's proper for to confine them to the constituency in which they live. They may find very able - in my case I had about 12 or 15 people that told me that they had experience before, but in their constituency everything was taken up while in my constituency there were still vacancies. He said "I'm sorry but we cannot take anyone who is not in the constituency." Whether it's right or wrong, I don't know and I'm not criticizing it now, but I suggest that the deputy returning officer should select the best available experienced enumerators no matter where they come from.
MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, this is a suggestion rather than a complaint. I am speaking for a group of people, I think, who are completely forgotten. In every community we have women who go out on the Community Chest, on the March of Dimes, canvas for the Red Cross, and I think that our returning officers would be well advised to get lists of these people and to give them some sort of recognition at election time. I think we're all agreed that this is not a political issue, but I do think that these people have experience in canvassing the community and that they shouldn't be forgotten at election time.
MR. D. M. STANES (St. James): Mr. Chairman, I don't think whatever form of enumeration one uses, you'll find a fool-proof method. I know that several people got left off the list in my constituency, having had their slip and having been enumerated, but somewhere between the list going to the printer and being checked, they got lost. But there is another factor which I think we can improve the situation somehow or other, and I don't know how, and that is a means by which a person can check whether they are on the voters list. The present practice of nailing it to trees and telegraph poles is not too satisfactory as they get blown to bits in a very short time. Somehow or other those lists should be in a place where they are protected.
MR. J. P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, I have a suggestion to make myself - I don't think it is a complaint - and that's in regard to advance polls. We had a case in Emerson constituency where the returning officer - the old returning officer was disposed of and a new one had taken office - now, I do not know whether the new returning officer didn't know the rules and regulations or deliberately did it or not - I'm not going to accuse the new returning officer of that, but what actually happened at the advance poll was that for the first two days voters had come to vote and they were unable to vote for the simple reason that there was nobody to issue
them certificates. My attention was called to that. I tried to get in touch with the deputy returning officer or the returning officer, who happened to be a lady here, and I couldn't - there was no answer at home. We tried the first day all afternoon - there was no answer, and the next day the same thing happened. As a consequence of this, about half a dozen voters who wished to vote did not get a chance to vote. They couldn't come in on the last day because they had to go out of the constituency just across the border, working in the forestry. Now, a complaint was made to the city here, to the clerk, and I understand that the clerk did get in touch with the returning officer - that was the last day and asked the returning officer to be available the last half a day, from noon on. I think it would be advisable, if at all possible, to have the returning officer give him the right to sign the certificates in the absence of the returning officer - deputy returning officer.
Now, another one of the complaints that I have to make which I have been asked - in fact I haven't got the letter with me, and this complaint came from Vita where the deputy returning officer had the whole hall at his disposal, and instead of taking the vote in the hall, he had set his box up in the entrance to the hall, just a very small, small room - the entrance of the hall. People - the voters - coming in had to stand in line outside at 8:00 o'clock in the morning, and we know the day of voting it was fairly cold and they were shivering outside. Instead of allowing them to enter, there was a policeman at the door allowing only a single entry at a time and when this man - this person had cast his vote he walked out and another one was allowed in, and I don't think that was necessary. I think it is our duty to see that the poll is made as convenient as possible. I think it says that in the Act. I think that somebody should look into this and see that it doesn't happen again.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I think the discussion that we've had now has been really worthwhile. It seems that there were complaints in many, if not all of the constituencies, of some nature or other, and maybe, as I indicated before, we will be discussing this whole problem once again unless the gentlemen opposite introduce something of a tangible nature that may overcome for the future elections many of the suggestions or complaints that have been offered this evening. I want to reiterate that as far as our position is concerned, Mr. Chairman, in introducing this our only desire is to make as much as possible the holding of an election in Manitoba, or indeed anywhere, as impartial as possible, and to make it as convenient as possible to the electors, and also to the candidates, etc., and the likes of that.
And I would like to ask the First Minister - if I recall the other day I raised the point in the House of the Polling Booth at Thompson wherein only 59 people, if I remember correctly, out of over 1,000 voted and subsequently the First Minister got information to the effect that the polling place was changed from the townsite to the campsite or vice versa, I'm not just sure of it. Now, in reading the Election Act as it stands, Section 4, Subsection (1), it says that "the returning officer on receiving the writ shall fix and provide a polling place for each polling subdivision in the most central or convenient place for the voters, preferably on the ground floor of a court house, municipal hall or public school house, or if none is available, the ground floor of a suitable building not being a place where intoxicating liquors are sold". Now it appears to me that something was wrong up in Thompson. Now I might be incorrect in suggesting that neither Inco or anybody else had the right, after the returning officer had chosen that spot for a polling place, to have it moved. There is another section in the Act, Mr. Chairman, Section 8 of the same - Subsection (8) of the same section which deals with the changing of a polling place, but it states in that, and I won't read all of it, that it shall be - "where it's found impractical to hold the poll in the place that was originally in the writ, that another one shall be placed as conveniently as possible to the one which was originally established." Our information is that this convenient place was two miles away from the original place.
Now I would like to pose this question - that the returning officer, having set the place there, surely under our Election Act he should have, if he has not, the right to retain that poll in the most convenient place for the electors, and I suggest that that was not done at Thompson. I think that if we're going to have any review of the Election Act itself, or it might necessitate a review of the agreement between the province and International Nickel, to make sure that the polling places are as convenient as possible for the voters and I think that had the - while we the Party - and I'm glad in some respects, Mr. Chairman, because we can in this at least say that we are impartial, but I think it's a travesty on us or on somebody when a poll of over
1,000 that due to the inconvenience of the poll as it does appear, only 59 people exercised their franchise.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I thought I'd wait until we'd heard from most of the members before we - before I made some comment on what has been said in respect of this, but I would not like the item to pass without making a few comments about it. I don't think there's anything more irritating to the general public, certainly to politicians, than an inaccurate election list. There's no disagreement about that, and I think that we are all interested in seeing that we get the best election list that we can. That's the basic thing here. Now, as other members in this House can testify, a discussion of this sort after an election is the order of the day. This is customary. I have taken part in it myself in days gone by and have spoken in much the same vein as members opposite have and I remember that three or four years ago, or perhaps longer than that, we did revise our Election Act and we did make some improvment in it. One of them, I think, is a very sound improvement. It was the system of allowing people, who have not been properly enumerated, to be sworn in on the representation of two neighbours. That was a considerable advance over what we had before and we thought at the time that this would take care of most of the errors that do unfortunately creep in in the preparation of the list. I think that was a good thing and I think it's been useful. We also made advance voting very easy, which is quite different from the rules in other jurisdictions. And that again, I think, was a good thing, and I think it did help many people to register their vote.
The question of enumeration, as I recall, was looked into pretty thoroughly by that committee and I think every one of the suggestions that were made here tonight were made to that committee. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, I think, will remember this as well as anybody, but we discussed at great lengths the possibility of using a municipal list. My colleague the Minister of Mines had some experience in preparing the City of Winnipeg list which is pretty extensive. We looked into the possibility of using muncipal lists which are prepared every year, at least in Winnipeg, for provincial purposes. We examined the difficulties of boundaries failing to coincide as between provincial seats and municipal boundaries. We looked into the question of keeping a yearly list up to date every year for changes and all that kind of thing and many other variations on the same theme, and when it was all over we came out with the system that we have here today. Now, that's not to say that the present system is perfect or that it can't be improved. I merely relate that these things were investigated pretty thoroughly and we came out at that conclusion in respect of that matter.
The reason why we decided to have another enumeration made was because of the very high mobility of the population, particularly in the urban areas. I believe that I figure the annual movement from one residence to another in Greater Winnipeg runs between 20 and 25 percent, which is a very large movement indeed. We could have probably saved ourselves some part of the enumeration cost of $77,000.00 had we decided to do that. Maybe we should have, but we thought it was better to try and get the most accurate list we could and we had the other one taken. It appears from all accounts that even with that effort it was considerably less satisfactory in many instances. If there were cases of enumerators failing to do a proper job and merely working on last year's list, that can't be defended and I certainly won't try to defend it. I can only say that the returning officers were brought in here and given a pretty thorough indoctrination in their duties by the Chief Electoral Officer and, in turn, urged to make sure that their people fully understood the situation, and so at least an effort was made in that respect to try and see that they were properly informed of their duties.
The question of getting satisfactory enumerators is a difficult one in some places. It is difficult in some places to get people to do the job who are - because most people who are competent in many respects are otherwise employed. It isn't true everywhere, I'll admit that; but in some areas you do have some trouble in getting proper enumerators, and that's something we've got to try and improve on - we've got to try and cope with that and do a better job than we've been doing.
The - some of the objections, some of the points that were raised by the honourable members are very well taken. I agree with the member for Emerson, for example, that that was a very unsatisfactory situation in respect to the advance poll in Vita. There is an extenuating circumstance, the original returning officer was taken sick, and the second one was appointed, which kind of upset some of the plans, regarding the location of the advance poll, and
that sort of thing. It doesn't excuse it and I'm not suggesting it should be excused. I'm merely offering that information as at least an extenuating circumstance in the matter.
It was brought to the Chief Electoral Officer, and he did what he could to put matters to rights.
I am in entire agreement with the comments made by the Leader of the C.C.F. party in respect to Thompson. I can only assure him that had it been possible insofar as we were concerned to have been aware of the situation in time, we would have been happy to take steps to see that it didn't occur -- and I have the fullest sympathy with those electors up there, some of whom have written me by the way, complaining about that state of affairs. I think they have every right to complain. It's difficult to give a satisfactory explanation as to what transpired. I can only give the facts; namely, that the poll was originally set up in the first instance on the property of the International Nickel Company, and they objected. And rightly or wrongly, the decision was made by those who have the responsibility for it, and in the heat and burden of those hectic days one can understand that it's a little difficult dealing with a town 400 miles away from Winnipeg here. Rightly or wrongly, that objection was allowed to stand; perhaps the International Nickel company had a right to make that objection. I haven't searched the law, and I really can't answer as to the fact. But they did make the objection, and owing to the circumstances of the development of that area the nearest other practical place was too far away -- was too hard to get at, and made it difficult for the people to vote and we know the result. Now, I offer no excuse for that, because I don't think that we should attempt to excuse it. We can only say that this is an experience which is likely to happen perhaps in the particular circumstances of that town - we can think that it's also likely that it won't happen again. But, that doesn't do the electors in that particular area any good as far as this election is concerned. However, I want to assure the honourable member that our feelings about the matter are much the same as his. We feel that it is wrong that it was one of those things that one sincerely hopes will not happen again.
Now, there are a good many other points that have been raised in this matter. When the subject was first raised by public statement in the newspapers, I naturally asked the Chief Electoral Officer to give me a report on the complaints that he had received, and he has given me a statement of some complaints which bear out what many of the members have said. He does offer the comment, though, -- I hope that it's in order for me to give this information to the House, -- but he offers the opinion that he does not think that by and large the situation was any worse than it has been in other elections. Now again, I don't say that that's any justification for anything that happened, I merely say that we have the human element to deal with, and we have had these problems before. Now, as far as this administration is concerned, I freely admit that we are not used to running elections; I freely admit that my predecessors had some experience in running them and their knowledge of these things may be more detailed than mine. I certainly will listen very carefully to any suggestions that may be offered in connection with this matter.
Now, what about it? What are we going to do? Well, I see no reason why we should not have a good look at the Election Act. I see no reason why we should not see if we can improve it. And, merely because some of our officials think that it's no worse than ususal this time is no reason why we shouldn't investigate this matter and go into the various suggestions that have been raised by members in greater detail. We'll get the officials there; we can find out any practical objections that they have run across in their experience and we can see if we can make an improvement. I would say that the government would be glad to give consideration to setting up a Special Select Committee to look into the Election Act. I would rather think however, that most of us would agree that perhaps it could be done at the winter session rather than at the present time due to the particular circumstances of our deliberations at the moment. But if the committee felt this way, and I'd be glad to discuss it informally with the leaders of the other parties if they should wish to do that. There's no reason why, at the next session we cannot set up a special select committee and investigate - go through the Act in detail, find out what improvements we can think of to make it better - and then we can bring in whatever changes we have for the approval of the House in due course.
But I would like to thank the members for the constructive suggestions that have been made.
I appreciate the suggestion that all concerned undertook to carry out the election machinery to the best of their ability, and I think that is true, and we'll be glad to take into consideration at a suitable time, probably at the next session, any suggestions that we might be able to put together as to how we can improve this legislation.
MR. MILLER: Just on the point of a committee. Would the Honourable the First Minister, prefer a special select committee rather than the standing committee which is already set up?
MR. ROBLIN: I think I would. I don't know off hand who is on that committee, but I would rather hope that if we had a special select committee with the party leaders on it that we would be more apt to arrive at an agreement that was generally acceptable insofar as the different groups are concerned. That's not to say that the other members of the House haven't got a right to sit on the committee or the right to be heard, because we all recognize that. But, as a matter of securing agreement on these things, and I would think it's desirable that we should insofar as we can get pretty unanimous view on it, I would suggest a special select committee as being the best means. That was the course followed previously, and I thought it had much to recommend it at the time.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to just make this suggestion, and I thank the Minister for his thoughts on this, and I think they are worthwhile. But, I would make this suggestion to him, that if the select committee is going to be appointed, that it not meet during the session, not referring to this one, the date...
MR. ROBLIN: We can see how busy we are. It may be quiet at that time.
MR. PAULLEY: Well, I don't know about the Honourable the First Minister and I don't know, Mr. Chairman, whether I'll be occupying the position of Leader of our group for subsequent sessions; but I do know with the experience I have had to date, right from the offset of the day His Honour came in to address us - I wouldn't have time to sit on many committees - extra committees, to investigate all of the details of the Election Act.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 8 (a) Pass. Item 7 Royal Visit - $100,000.00.
MR. ROBLIN: I'd just like to make a brief explanation here, Mr. Chairman. This is a very round figure indeed. I can't pretend to the Committee that this figure has been arrived at as an accurate estimate of what the Royal Visit will cost us. I'm of the opinion that it will not be nearly this size, I think it will be very much less indeed; but I'm afraid that I can't give any firm idea of the cost, because our estimates are in a very fluid state. We have yet to hear from the decorators and people of that sort, and you'll understand that in the rush of things at the moment we haven't got concrete figures. So, we picked what probably is a very outside figure indeed, and put it down so that we would be covered in the case of contingencies.
MR. GRAY: Have you an item, Mr. Chairman, of the $100,000.00 scholarship for the...
MR. ROBLIN: That's to be found in - the Minister of Education will deal with that, Mr. Chairman.
MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, I see that the item is omitted regarding Civil Defence on previous - under the Executive Council. I wonder where that would be in terms of ...
MR. ROBLIN: The Civil Defence Department has been transferred to the care of another minister. It's in the charge of the Minister of Public Utilities at the present time.
MR. CAMPBELL: In connection with the Her Majesty's visit, Mr. Chairman, would the Honourable the First Minister like to make any further statement about the arrangements for that visit, or anything that is proposed?
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, the proposals that have been finally approved have been published in the daily newspapers, and I know that's not notice to the members; but I think probably that most are thoroughly familiar with what that includes. If there are any questions on it, on specific points, I'll do my best to answer them.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Did the First Minister ever consider the possibility of having Her Majesty prorogue the House, if we should happen to adjourn that particular day that she is in Winnipeg?
MR. ROBLIN: You know, Mr. Chairman, that's an intriguing suggestion. I must say I have not allowed myself to think that the legislature will be ready to prorogue by that time.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I suppose it's too late to change the itinerary so that instead of Her Majesty meeting us fellows, as much as we would, that she'd be able to spend more time with the younger folk of the community. I guess it's too late for any suggestion of
that nature.
MR. ROBLIN: I'm afraid it's too late for any changes, but I would like to just say a word on that point because I agree with the view expressed -- or implied at least by my honourable friend. We have concluded, as I think everyone here would conclude, that we want to make sure that the young people of the province have as much of an opportunity as we can manage to be present during the Royal Visit and to see Her Majesty, and allow her to see them. This is the express wish of Her Majesty as communicated to us. We had a rather elaborate program as you know, -- not all of which we could do, for reasons of time -- that we've discussed previously in the Chamber, but we are doing our best to see that the children do have a chance to see the Queen and the Prince. The - a couple of the main functions, particularly in Assiniboine Park, are particularly intended for them. Now, unfortunately the school term is closed, therefore, we don't have the same opportunity of bringing in the children as we would otherwise have. But I understand that letters have been written to the School Board throughout Manitoba, suggesting to them that if they wish to make up a party of children, under the care of an adult, to come in on that day to Winnipeg, then special reservations would be made for that party so that they may be assured of some place in the proceedings.
One of our anxieties has been to try and see to it that this does not become just a Winnipeg visit, important and desirable as that is. One of the things that we are very keen to do is try and make it a Manitoba visit insofar as possible. So, we have sent out this invitation to the School Districts of Manitoba to send in parties of their children, and they will be given special locations, and if the Assiniboine Park reception, -- where incidentally the interesting Hudson's Bay rent will be paid -- it will be rather picturesque, and matters of that sort, -- and so they'll be accommodated there. We also have the same idea with respect to Provencher Park, where another reception, another sort of stop will be made in the visit and we hope these will work out.
There may be other plans in connection with children that some of my colleagues might remind me of but those are the main ones that occur to me at the present time.
We have also endeavoured to see to it that residents outside the Greater Winnipeg area should have some opportunity of attending the concert at the Arena. So, we have communicated with the Reeves of Manitoba, and asked them to let the Arena people know if they want seats reserved for any people coming from their area. And, within limitations, and on a quota system we will do our best to accommodate them. The idea is that people in the Greater Winnipeg area have ample opportunity to reserve seats and to be there on the night should they wish, and people from outside Winnipeg may wonder how on earth they are going to get in in all the crush. So, we have written to the municipal authorities offering them that suggestion, and that if they return their reservations within a certain period of time then they can be assured of accommodation in the Arena. Now, already some of those have come in - we're not dealing with them ourselves, it's being done by another committee -- but some of those I know have come in, and I believe that we will be able to secure fair representation throughout the province at that particular function in that way.
Now, there also will be an effort made to secure special places for special people, I think some of the Chiefs of the Indian Tribes in Manitoba, will be asked to be present, from various parts of the province. I believe that certain distinguished elder citizens will also be taken care of in this way - it's an extremely difficult job to decide who is to receive this privilege and who is not because there's so many would like to come, and we know that all can't but we are making an effort to see that that is done.
Then of course, I suppose the members all know that the Canadian Legion has been asked to supply guards of honour in a sense at certain strategic points along the route, and we've asked, I believe, the committee has asked the Manitoba and Northwestern Ontario Command to circulate its out of town branches to make sure that they are represented in whatever manner they wish, in that particular way. So, you can see that we have taken some steps at any rate, to try and make this a Manitoba visit insofar as Her Majesty and the Prince are concerned.
There is also, of course, a luncheon that the province is tendering at which the Reeves and Mayors and their wives of the whole province will be present at the Royal Alexander Hotel, at lunch.
His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor, is entertaining Her Majesty to a dinner -- I'm not
sure whether it's a buffet dinner or what it is -- but again efforts are being made by His Honour to make sure that citizens representative of all the wide variety of interest in the province are invited to that, on that particular occasion. And I'm sure that we'll be able to see to it that a good many people who represent achievement in agriculture or in education or in personal endeavour of various sorts are considered for the invitation list of that dinner. Naturally it is restricted -- it's a sad fact of life, but that makes the going difficult, but at any rate, we're making a try.
Members of the House will be presented to Her Majesty and the Prince here at the building in the afternoon. In the course of the afternoon, we are having an ethnic display in front of the Parliament Buildings here, at which the various groups that have joined together in building this province and the country will be asked to put on some little touch of culture, some little touch of color, rather; some aspect of their cultural heritage that goes to make up the Canadian nation, and I think that the whole arrangement -- which is in the hands of Mr. John Hirsch, incidentally, who is very good at this sort of thing, I think he was responsible for the television appearances of my honourable friends opposite during certain activities in the last year or so, he was very good at that -- [Interjection - Laughter] -- and I didn't say that. I think Mr. Hirsch is pretty good. I think probably the material was a bit difficult, but he did the best he could with it. But, at any rate, he's in charge of the ethnic display and then, of course, the climax will be the Canadian citizenship angle with all these different groups working together. That will take place out here. We're expecting a great many people from all over to be present at that; arrangements are being made to accommodate them as best we can. And sometimes in the afternoon, I rather think it will be published, the members of this House, the federal representatives, the leaders of the clergy, and people of that sort will be presented to Her Majesty and the Prince. We are keeping hand-shaking down to what's pretty well the bare minimum in this kind of a thing. It's easy to say we shouldn't have it -- but on the other hand, who is more representative of the people of Manitoba than, for example, the Reeves, the Mayors and their wives? It's hard to find a group that is more truly representative, and consequently there is some of this official reception sort of thing, but I believe it's at a reasonable minimum. And we're trying to work on the rule that so far as possible, one man, one handshake, if you follow me. We're doing our -- eliminating as far as we can any business of the same people being presented or being present at more than one occasion. There will be a few exceptions which are necessary in the nature of things, but the aim is to try and make sure that we don't fall into that particular trap. Now the government is declaring a three-day celebration, you might say - a period of celebration for the three days that Her Majesty is here. Three days - it sounds pretty good, but, it's the night of one day, when she arrives at Virden and Brandon, and Portage - Portage in the morning. One day here, and the morning of the next day departing. But in view of the fact that she is in the province three days we are - I think His Honour has signed an Order, referring to it as a three-day period of celebration.
MR. PAULLEY: Does that apply to legislators?
MR. ROBLIN: Yes, I expect all the legislators to be out there with their hats ready to throw in the air, and to join in this - enthusiastically - in this welcome to Her Majesty and the Prince, and I'm sure that will happen.
MR. PAULLEY: I mean, we won't be meeting for those three days?
MR. ROBLIN: Well, that's another thing. I think that if the House is still in session, and I suppose we take it that it is, I think probably that we will only suspend our meeting for the one day - the Friday. Members from Brandon and Virden and Portage may wish to be home for the evening that Her Majesty is there and that would be understandable, -- but we, we wouldn't be meeting the Saturday anyway, so probably we'll just suspend business for the one day; although that is something that we can look into later on. We needn't make any hard and fast rule here at the present time.
Now, that's the main bones of the matter, if there's any other point that anyone would like to enquire about, I'll try my best.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the First Minister whether he and his colleagues have had a full say over the arrangements of Her Majesty's visit to this Province?
MR. ROBLIN: No, Mr. Chairman, and for a very good reason, because the host of Her Majesty is, of course, the Federal Government, and it's the federal people who have to decide
how much time Her Majesty spends in the various places. What they ask the provinces to do is to deal -- submit suggestions for the activities during the period in which Her Majesty is in any one province; and then, of course, those suggestions have to be whittled down; first of all by the standing rules and orders that govern this kind of thing, and then local bodies perhaps through us - were too enthusiastic, or perhaps wish to put too much into a very trying day for any one person to go through, I'm sure, -- and we naturally have to amend our plans. We would, of course, like to have had Her Majesty here longer, because we had much more ambitious schemes for showing her Manitoba, but when all the other requirements of the rest of the country were considered, we simply had to content ourselves with a lesser period of time. So that all plans were necessarily subject to the overriding authority of the Dominion Royal Visit Co-ordinator General Graham.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, could the First Minister tell us was it the provincial authority or the federal authority that changed the Provinicial Co-ordinator of the Royal Tour in Manitoba and why was the change made?
MR. ROBLIN: The Co-ordinator of the Royal Tour in Manitoba has not been changed, the same gentleman is still in charge.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I think the Honourable, the First Minister has given us a very excellent review of the arrangements that have been made, and it seems to me that the government has done very well in arrangements considering the difficulties under which they must labor in arranging a visit of this kind, which is short -- so many things must be taken into consideration. I was wondering, however, that inasmuch as we will be in this House, -- either in session or just shortly have concluded our session, -- when the Royal Visit takes place - that's a unique situation - we'll be the one Province of Canada where that applies. I was wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea on that account -- particularly if we are still in session -- even if we aren't, -- we'd have just finished a session, if it wouldn't be a good idea for us to have an address prepared which the Legislature itself could make to Her Majesty and Prince Philip. The fact that we are going to have the honour of being presented to them here in this Chamber is one thing, and a very, very important thing, but of course, the House will not be in session, and of course if we were, nobody is going to take the time to make a formal presentation, but if we just could have an illuminated address prepared as the one legislature that may be in session - I think it might be a rather good action under the circumstances.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, that's an interesting suggestion, we'll certainly take it into consideration. I should say that if the weather is good we'll be presented on the steps - not in here.
MR. CAMPBELL: Oh, not in here?
MR. ROBLIN: No.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, the First Minister says that the Co-ordinator wasn't changed. The Newspaper reports earlier in the year announced that Derek Bedson was the co-ordinator of the Manitoba tour and subsequent reports announced that he had been replaced by Andrew Currie. Is that not correct?
MR. ROBLIN: No, the newspapers are sometimes very interesting to read, but not always correct. I really doubt whether they said what my honourable friend says they said - that may be his impression, but I don't recall reading that in the newspapers myself. Mr. Bedson is the provincial co-ordinator, Mr. Currie is the co-ordinator for the Greater Winnipeg endeavours. There is a co-ordinator in Brandon, in Portage and in Virden as well, whose names escape me at the moment.
MR. GUTTORMSON: Is Mr. Bedson still the Winnipeg co-ordinator?
MR. ROBLIN: No, he never was, Mr. Chairman.
MR. SCHREYER: I noticed while the itinerary was still in its tentative stages that some time was provided during which time members of this Assembly and their wives would be presented to the Queen and Prince Philip. Now, I need not tell you that all members of this Assembly aren't married, for example, my friend and neighbour, the Honourable Member for Springfield and myself - we are bachelors, and I am quite anxious this being such a momentous occasion -- I'm quite anxious if we're allowed to bring our lady friends, which we do have... [Laughter]
MR. ROBLIN: I am deeply touched by that appeal. I was formerly in that category
myself, but I advise my honourable friend to get married.
MR. CAMPBELL: On the other hand, Mr. Chairman, if it would help along the way in that laudable intention of getting married, if it would do the Honourable member some good - I think the Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne, the Honourable Member for Springfield, and the Honourable Member for Brokenhead should get all the assistance that we can give them.
MR. McKELLAR: Mr. Chairman, I suggest that Princess Margaret be given an invitation to come over and visit Canada.
MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I think that the government has quite a celebration set up for those three days, but I think that the Honourable, the First Minister should really consider this period of celebration, and if it's going to be a celebration, I wish they'd make up their mind because, sitting here, especially on this side of the House, there's not much celebration. And if we're going to follow the suggestion of the Honourable, the First Minister, and throw our hats in the air, it'll take quite an arm to throw it from this building.
MR. ROBLIN: I don't follow my honourable friend entirely, but I can understand the reason for his gloom.
MR. DESJARDINS: That's it - we want three days of celebration.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Now shall we return to Item 5 - Libraries and Historical Research. Is the Minister here?
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I suggested that when this item came up that I was sure that the designated Minister would like to make a statement as to the affairs of his Branch, and his hopes and aspirations in the future, because afterwards I would like to make some comments.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, for some years it has been the custom and tradition that the Minister of Education also holds the portfolio as Minister in charge of libraries. This includes the legislative library, and the Public Libraries Act under which Public Libraries and regional libraries are established and operated. I must confess with some frankness to the House that this part of my duties has not engaged too large a part of my time and attention since last July and no particular changes have been made in the plans and in the procedures that were followed previous to the time that this administration came into office.
The legislative library as everyone knows exists, of course, to serve primarily the members of the legislature in providing here a source of reference material that is necessary to the discharge of our public duties. And also to serve as a source of material for those interested - any citizen of Manitoba who is interested in research and in the history and story of the Province of Manitoba. And it is also a depository for documents and books of an official character from Canada, and indeed, the North American continent and other countries of the world. In the field of public libraries and particularly with respect to regional libraries, the staff has continued to give encouragement and assistance to the establishment of regional libraries. Miss Morley, who is the provincial librarian, is also the director of library services and her services and the services of others in the department or in the library have been made available to communities interested in the establishment of regional libraries. They perform two other services with respect to regional libraries, and of course, these services are also available to municipal libraries, namely, the service of bringing in and giving some training to persons chosen as librarians in regional libraries and assisting them in the commencement of their duties, because in most instances they are not people who are trained as librarians. And then to maintain a close working association with the libraries by having either Miss Morley or another member of the staff visit the libraries from time to time to give further assistance and advice and counsel such as they are very capable of doing. Those duties are shared with Miss Morley by Miss Perrin, who is a member of the staff of the legislative library.
There are no proposed changes in the grants to libraries, and we do not propose to bring in any legislation with respect to libraries at this session of the Legislature. While there are no changes in the grants to individual libraries, there are increases in the amount of money required for libraries because of the fact that there are now more libraries established, particularly regional libraries, than there were when the estimates were before the House a year ago. I would say that the Province of Manitoba is fortunate in having a very talented staff in the legislative library and they have equipped themselves, during the past year, in a very creditable manner and have certainly maintained the traditions that have been established in previous years. It is difficult - there is a shortage of trained librarians that affects us not
only with respect to the staff in the legislative library itself, but in the staffing of the municipal and regional libraries. We try to encourage young men and women to avail themselves of training as librarians although that has not resulted in a particularly large number of them taking the special training which is available for librarians. I think that that is perhaps the - the Honourable Member for Rhineland said also to say something about my hopes and aspirations. It would be, I think, perhaps to - I believe there are some revisions necessary in the Public Libraries Act to some revisions - some changes which have been requested by the Library Association of Manitoba, to which we are giving serious consideration. Some changes suggested by the Advisory Board established under the Public Libraries Act to which also we are giving serious consideration. And it would be my hope that prior to the next session of this legislature, we will be able to consider carefully the suggestions they have made and also other suggestions that may be made, and make some changes in the Act which will bring it into keeping with the times and conditions in which the libraries are now operating. Perhaps anything further can be dealt with on specific questions with respect to items as they appear in the estimates.
Perhaps I should just say one further thing and that has to do with regard to microfilming the newspapers which are kept by the library. The legislative library has one of the best collections of early - in fact, the only collection, of course, in Manitoba of early newspapers in this province. And we are anxious to begin in a very substantial way, the microfilming of them because the papers themselves have reached an age where they will soon begin to disintegrate, and it is important that we have, take some steps to have them microfilmed, -- and that also will save space when that has been done. And there is an item in the estimates to begin that work which is expected will be carried on over a period of some four years in order to have them all on the microfilm equipment.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I would suggest we have the questions as we come to the various...
MR. W. C. MILLER (Rhineland): No, I want to make a few comments. I'm very greatly indebted, ... he has given in connection with this department, and I can thoroughly agree with his commendation of the staff. I want to say a few words about that staff, particularly about the provincial librarian and the director of library services who happens to be the same person. I think it is almost entirely due to the efforts of the staff, and particularly the director of library services, that we now have six regional libraries. I am hopeful that that policy of promoting libraries will continue. I would like to know whether there are any other votes in prospect, because I have talked to quite a number of people from regions where these libraries were established, and from what I gathered from them is that the scheme has been highly successful, and I would like to see it extended. And I think too what we might mention, Mr. Chairman, that this is yet another example of flexibility in that we were able to establish more regional libraries because of the policy to permit establishment of these libraries consisting of two municipalities or more. And I might suggest to the Minister that in the suburban area particularly, that two of the public libraries might well avail themselves of the opportunity of the legislation and join hands and thus qualify for the greater grants. I wonder too, if the Minister has explored the possibility of the exchange between these regional libraries of the books that are presently available there when they have been well read, because my understanding is that the policy of the director has been, -- and I might say that she has been greatly helpful to the officials coming from these regions in the selections of books, -- and my understanding is that the books were not all of one nature. And so the selection lends itself to exchange when they have been read in one particular area.
I think there is a great field for expansion there and I might confess, Mr. Chairman, and I am greatly interested in it. You know I am one of these old tired men who because of physical handicaps can't have any hobbies, but I am a great reader. As a matter of fact, I was told the other day by the director of the extension service at the University that I was his best customer, and so I am greatly interested in that, and I would suggest to the Minister that he explore the further possibilities of creating more regional libraries. We've made great progress and I think it's the most wonderful thing that can happen to the cultural development of this province. And I suggest to the Honourable the First Minister when he told us this afternoon about the advisability of spending more money for cultural purposes, that he heeds the admonitions of his colleague the Minister of libraries and augments this particular appropriation.
MR. D. ORLIKOW (St. Johns): Mr. Chairman, as a new member, I have no intention of discussing past legislation or past appropriations, or being critical of the former government, -- and I certainly have no intention of being critical of this government and of the present Minister of Education. I think we all appreciate that his time has been more than fully occupied with the re-organization of the educational system.
At the same time I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I think, and I'm not being critical of the Minister or the government, I think they just simply have been busy with primary jobs. At the same time, I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I don't think that we are doing a job. And I'm not saying this in a partisan sense at all, Mr. Chairman. When we are spending, as I read it, $80,400 for libraries, -- I take it that the money we're spending including the Provincial Library and the Archives comes under departmental libraries and public library grants, and I add that as being $80,400. Mr. Chairman, we teach youngsters in this province and in this country to read and then because of the high price of books and the shortage of libraries, -- in all parts of the province, -- it's true even in the urban areas -- and the shortages of books in the libraries, we discourage them from reading. Now it was said in the urban areas that T.V. would kill the reading of books and yet we found in the city of Winnipeg with, and we haven't too much to be proud of, -- we've turned down two or three library by-laws, in the city - but we found that the use of mobile units of book mobiles, as we call them, has practically doubled the use of books in the City of Winnipeg. In other words, Mr. Chairman, people will read if you bring the books within range of where they can get at them.
Now all I'm rising for, Mr. Chairman, is to suggest to the Minister that now that he is at the end of the first re-organization of the education department, that possibly next year he can have just as hard a look at the library picuture situation. I would like to see the Minister coming here next year with a proposal that we spend two or three times $80,000. I think if the province would do that -- and I'm not saying how it should be done, -- I think that the local municipalities would be more than willing to match the money and we would give the people of this province an opportunity to read - which is more than ever, Mr. Chairman, necessary in this modern and complex society. Now as I say, this is not said in any critical sense. I appreciate that the Minister has had his hands full, its a suggestion for the future which I hope he will explore and give some leadership to in the field of libraries as he has already done in the field of education.
MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, I have one or two questions under the item (a) 2 - but I want to take the opportunity now just to for one minute to commend the librarian very highly and the very good staff in the library for their consideration, kindness and willingness to serve the members of this legislature. I make use of the library, although my speeches are not yet improved, but I do make use of the libraries, and the kindness and the willingness that they show to get the information that we require, I have not yet witnessed in any library at all. There is no officialdom, they are ready and willing to help everyone out. They go out of their way to find the information that we require, and I think that we are fortunate to have in this provincial library a staff of its kind. I just wish to commend very highly the librarian and its staff.
MR. F. GROVES (St. Vital): Mr. Chairman, I have to admit at this time that I agree 100% with the remarks of the Honourable Member from St. Johns and with the tenor in which he made these remarks. As I feel that libraries are something, a feature of the educational system of our province; that I do hope that the Minister of Education, now that he has done the great job that he has on the school system, will soon be able to devote his talent. I am sorry that in these estimates that are before us tonight that there aren't increases in grants to regional and municipal libraries.
In November of 1958, the Manitoba Library Association presented to the Minister of Education a Brief outlining what in their opinion were sections in the Libraries Act that needed revision. The Minister has promised to give these matters consideration and we hope that he will in the not too distant future. This brief is a very good brief and it contains a lot of constructive suggestions for the improvement of our Libraries Act and library facilities generally in the province. I think that all of us who have been connected with libraries in the past, and even the Minister of Education, I'm sure, would admit that our Libraries Act has been long overdue for a good overhaul. This brief contains a number of sensible suggestions in connection with library grants. I was the first chairman of the St. Vital Public Library, which I believe
was one of the first of recent years to organize under the provisions of this Act. At that time we were receiving from the government, that is the government of the previous administration, an establishment grant of $200 and an annual grant of $400. Prior to their leaving office the annual grant was increased to some $2,000, which was certainly appreciated in library circles; but we have hopes that as time goes by that that will be increased further and brought into line with what the libraries of this province actually need to do the job that they have to do. At the present time the St. Vital Public Library, and I am just using that as an example, received this $2,000 annual grant; it's recommended in this brief that was presented to the Minister, that the annual grant be increased from this $2,000 -- in the case of St. Vital to $4,840. At the present time the taxpayers of the municipality are contributing $12,400 to libraries, which is a substantial contribution for a community that size. So that we hope, and this applies to all of the other municipal libraries as well, we hope to see those grants increased to somewhat the extent that is recommended in this brief by the Library Association.
Libraries are a very important part of our community and we want to see them supported by the provincial government. At the present time, there are six regional libraries in the provinces and 9 municipal libraries including the library in Winnipeg. Many thousands of children use these libraries every day and that in itself, I think, warrants substantial support by the province. The provincial treasurer this afternoon read us off a number of fairly substantial grants which the province has been making and intends to make to organizations of a cultural nature that are serving the people of Manitoba. But I would suggest that that may be a good reason why they should consider substantially increasing the grants to libraries because although to a certain degree, these organizations do serve the children of our province and are of an educational nature, some of them are to a large degree patronized by people of means and I hope that the government will give this coming year serious consideration to the problems of libraries and the part that they are playing, the expanding the education of our children.
MR. CHAIRMAN: ...Section (a) Provincial Library (1). Salaries $26,490.; 2. Supplies, expense, equipment, renewals, microfilming expenses $25,950.;
MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, may I direct two questions to the Minister under this item? One, - is the amount included in the $27,000 for books and for periodicals? Question No. 2, whether any consideration has been given to the librarian or the senior staff to take up post-graduate and library work at the expense of the province?
MR. McLEAN: The answer to the second question is no. That matter has not been discussed or considered or suggested until you have made the suggestion now. And your first question - what part of the $25,000 was for books and periodicals - $10,950.
MR. MILLER: Sir, there have been members of the staff, members of the staff have been assisted to complete their library course in the east, - to my knowledge, at least three. Isn't that correct, Mr. Chairman?
MR. McLEAN: Yes. But I understood the Honourable Member for Inkster...
MR. MILLER: The Honourable Member for Inkster was talking about post-graduate work.
MR. McLEAN: Yes.
MR. MILLER: Are there any more prospects of having people attend the normal library course, the initial library course in the east with government assistance? Are there any applications?
MR. McLEAN: I am not aware of any applications; there are no applications from the members of the present staff of the provincial library and I am not aware of what applications there may be for other students to take that course, although the people in the library do try to promote that because there are substantial bursaries available for anyone that is interested.
MR. GRAY: One more question. At the present time there are so many new books of importance. The world is travelling very, very fast; there is a big struggle between nations, east and west, and a lot of publications being printed. Do you think $10,000 is sufficient for new books, periodicals and anything that a library, a reference library requires?
MR. McLEAN: Well, I am not perhaps too qualified to express an opinion on that except that I would point out that the library is in receipt of a vast amount of materials, that is publications, periodicals and such like which do not cost anything at all. It comes without charge to the library.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) Departmental Libraries. 1. Salaries $10,215. 2. Supplies, expenses, equipment and renewals.
MR. MILLER: ...library, Mr. Chairman, isn't it?
MR. McLEAN: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: $2,755. (c) Public Library Grants $24,400; (d) Regional Libraries, establishment grants $30,000 and two annual grants $26,000 ... sub-total $56,000 or ...
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, this item just takes care with exception of $2,000 of established regions, doesn't it? The 28 ...
MR. McLEAN: Yes.
MR. MILLER: Is there no provision for any further increase in the number?
MR. McLEAN: Yes. The item of the establishment grants $80,000 would provide for establishment grants to three new regional libraries; and answering the question that the honourable member asked just a short time ago, -- the votes in prospect at the moment are the Swan River Valley in which six municipalities and villages and the town of Swan River will be voting is one. The second prospect or possibility is at Minnedosa and I'm not certain that we are too definite on the third but we do expect that there possibly will be three before the end of the year.
MR. MILLER: Is there any renewal of interest in the Neepawa...
MR. McLEAN: That's one of the ones that might be the third.
MR. MILLER: And what about Dauphin?
MR. McLEAN: Well, there is no particular indication of interest in a regional library there at the moment. They have, as you know, the municipal library which is the first one established under the Act but as far as I am aware, there is no strong indication of support of a regional library.
MR. CHAIRMAN: (e) Archives and historical research. (1) Salaries $6,420. (2) Supplies, expense and equipment and renewals, $3,500.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, is the same Minister in charge of this division, if we may call it so?
MR. McLEAN: I regret to say yes.
MR. CAMPBELL: I am sure, my honourable friend is very glad to be because I think that it's a most interesting one. There is a reduction there, I believe. Is that because one of the grants or more have been transferred to the grants that the First Minister mentioned earlier this afternoon or evening?
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I can give you the grants, - the grants that are included in the item that is there is the Manitoba Historical Society $3,000 which is the same as last year; Canadian Library Association $500; Manitoba Library Association $75.00 and St. Boniface Historical Society $200, - total $3,775. I regret that I cannot inform you the reason for the difference in that item that are under the Executive Council. I'm quite sure that it doesn't mean that any grants are not being made that were made last year. They must be in another department.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, my recollection is that the First Minister listed the $3,000 grant to the Historical Society.
MR. ROBLIN: Now when could I have listed that one?
MR. MILLER: I think that's what I - the reason I asked him a supplementary question because my understanding is that this grant has to be matched by membership grants up to $3,000. I'm awfully sorry if I misunderstood the First Minister, or was that possibly Historic Sites?
MR. ROBLIN: I think so, Mr. Chairman, I don't seem to have all my ...
MR. McLEAN: I was listening, Mr. Chairman, to the list and I'm quite certain that that was not included although I think the Historic Sites was included in the list which the First Minister ...
MR. ROBLIN: I included Historic Sites at $3,000.00.
MR. J. M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows): I would like to commend, whether it's this government or the previous government who are responsible for doing something that was lacking for years and years and that was something that - here we have one of the finest Parliament
Buildings in Canada. We have some very famous statues all over the grounds and for years anyone who came in had no idea or conception who some of these people were. And I don't know whether it's been the Historical Society that's been responsible for putting these plaques on these various statues, but I can assure you in the past year, there have been quite a number of classes coming out to visit these grounds, ever since they have been put up. And as a matter of fact, many of the teachers are taking small groups of children out to see these various statues around the grounds of the Parliament Buildings and I think it is a wonderful idea. I don't know whether the Historical Society has been responsible for that but certainly it was an idea in the right direction. Also, regarding historical sites, in this province, I think one of the main features of attraction besides the big fishing and hunting that goes on is that many of the youngsters coming in from - particularly from across the line, just as I was interested when I visited many parts of the States, was to see where some of these historical sights were located. And I was just wondering whether we, having such a wonderful attraction as far as the Red River Valley is concerned, have we been putting up various plaques, which you find so common in the United States, where you can go off the main highway and there is a big plaque stating such and such an incident took place. Now whether we've done that to a very large extent in this province, maybe the former Minister of Education can tell us that, but I think that's something we should do - spend a little money on, because it is a big feature and a big attraction for the tourists in this province.
MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to support the point of view that's just been raised by my honourable friend. I think in support of the tourist industry, and I don't think I'm wandering from the particular subject of this item at the moment, it is one of the great attractions. I think it's one of the things that people travel for, whether from the educational point of view or purely the enjoyment point of view as they come to a strange place they like to see the history of it and know something about it. I very much support the point of view that has just been raised and I won't say anything more on that subject at the moment because I do hope to discuss that rather more fully when I come to my own estimates.
I would like to say just a little word about the archivest, Mr. Bowfield, who I think is conducting his operations in a very intelligent way, and he has a great interest in all matters concerning the Manitoba Archives, and in my opinion, he's doing very important work. Archives are important to preserve while they can still be had, and we are near enough to beginnings in Manitoba that papers are still in the hands of people who are still living, that should be preserved for future research and for historians and for the archives themselves. I don't think it's generally realized that almost any family papers, particularly from a family that's been settled in the province for any length of time, may be of great value. They may not deal with constitutional or historical matters but they might be, and very often are, a place where we can learn the history and traditions of different peoples who came and settled in different parts of the province, and descriptions of social customs of their day or of the particular location in the province in which these people spent their lives. I think at this time all I can say is that I do hope the public will become increasingly aware of the fact that any old papers, correspondence, family letters, even publications and so on, may have value to the archivest. Now arrangements can be made with the archivest, as I understand it, to take any family papers, have, have them held without the seals being broken for any length of time that the--say the heirs of an estate or the relations would wish to establish. Sometimes in family correspondence there might be references, not necessarily derogatory references, but references to living persons that they might not wish to have put in the hands of students and researchers for a few years to come, but certainly no harm would be done after a few years have passed when perhaps the particular sad event of the passing of the person concerned has passed on into history.
It came to my notice the other day, a strange thing that may be of interest, that one of the best sources for what I might call Manitobiana, I think we speak of Canadiana, paintings and records and other papers connected with the Riel Rebellion were found in quantity in New Zealand. It happened that the factors and other senior employees of the North-West Company, when they went on pension, found that at that time their somewhat meagre pensions could buy more in New Zealand than almost any other place, and so they sailed and settled in that country. I wish I could recall the name now, but there is a foundation in Calgary which makes it its business to acquire this Canadiana, and among it a good deal of Manitobiana, and bring it back
to this country. I do hope we will be able to make use of that, particularly for archives purposes and historical research, and social research, but also for the promotion of the tourist business and I make these few remarks perhaps to pay my respects then to the quality and the quantity and the kind of work that is being done by the provincial archivist.
MR. MILLER: ...and I notice that in the estimates of the previous government grants on research under this item was $8,275.00. It shows on the left hand side as $5,275.00 - $5,275 - I think that's a misprint.
MR. ROBLIN: I think that is accounted for by the fact that the Grant on Historical Societies that we referred to a few minutes ago had been transferred out of here and...
MR. MILLER: Had been transferred to Executive...?
MR. ROBLIN: Yes. Yes. So in order to show the figures in all fours we made the adjustment here.
MR. MILLER: There is another thing that I would like to comment on, and that is that some time ago, it was thought that the Department of Industry and Commerce might better handle the historic sites and plaques, and so that portion of this item was transferred under the previous administration to the Department of Industry and Commerce and they, in conjunction with Department of Public Works, have set up numerous historic site plaques and I think they are quite prevalent all over the province.
MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Chairman, this is a very interesting subject to me because we in the village of Manitou had Mrs. McClung live there for a good number of years. Her husband ran the drug store there, and we have been corresponding with the Federal Government somehow in order to get something done for the old home where she resided a good many years. The reason for their not taking too much action, they have already set up a place down in Ontario as a historical site towards her. But I think that she belongs to the Province of Manitoba - Mrs. McClung - and I would ask support, and ask the government if they won't look into consideration of putting up some kind of a historical site in the village of Manitou at the home where she resided for so many years.
MR. WRIGHT: In my constituency of Seven Oaks we have in the Municipality of West Kildonan, Seven Oaks House, and thanks to the leadership of the municipal council there and a volunteer group, this John Inkster farm is now in the process of being restored. I just wondered, Mr. Chairman, if any assistance was contemplated by the government in assisting this group to rehabilitate this farm.
MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I think I should explain that while I have the responsibility for archives and historical research my colleague, the Honourable the Provincial Secretary, is the Minister in charge with respect to historic sites. I am not too certain that I can explain the distinction between our two positions. I do believe, however, subject to what he might wish to say on the subject, that so far as the Province of Manitoba is concerned, that we only enter the matter of historic sites to the extent that a grant is made to the Historic Sites Association or Board and that they carry on from there, and also subject, of course, to whatever assistance they receive through the Department of Industry and Commerce.
MR. BOULIC: Mr. Chairman, the historic sites have been transferred to my department very recently. We are in the process of going through the correspondence. I remember Seven Oaks very well, Mrs. McClung, and quite a few others that we are taking into consideration at this time.
MR. CAMPBELL: May I be brought up-to-date on this because I'm afraid I haven't been keeping as close to it as I should. This is a Manitoba Historic Sites, is it? This is separate and distinct from the Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada? I think that I saw a picture of the Honourable the Minister of Education taking part in some dedication of a site recently. I have forgotten where it was.
MR. McLEAN: It was the annual meeting of the Manitoba Historical Association, at which time that plaque was unveiled. I was accompanied on that occasion by my colleague who is, more strictly speaking, the Minister in charge of that, so far as the government is concerned.
MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I thank the minister for giving me the correct information on it. That was the place where one of the first steamers had docked, was it? That's a good thing to commemorate, I would think, and I do believe that much more can be done, as the Honourable
Minister of Mines and Natural Resources has said here.
Now, what I really got up to do, though, was comment on the remark of one of my honourable friends here. Was it the Honourable Member for Inkster, who mentioned putting up some signs on the road indicating historical sites, - the Honourable Member for Burrows - well, then the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources followed that up. I think that's good, too. That's excellent, provided we fix up the historical site first. Make a job of it, because with all due respect to our neighbours to the south, and they do a lot of remarkably good things, but one thing that they do down there is that at times they over-advertise some one of these very interesting sites that they have, and you drive miles out of your way to see it, and really it does not amount to very much when you get there, and I'm all in favour of that provided we do a good job of fixing up the site first. But for goodness sake, don't let's take tourists around to see some of the things like they do down in the United States, because this is a place where over-enthusiasm, I think, can hurt the feelings very, very greatly of the tourists, and I'm sure that most of you have experienced that in the country to the south.
Now, on the matter of historical sites, as several of the honourable members have mentioned, we have lots of them, and maybe it's a sign that a fellow is getting a little old when he starts being so interested in these things, but we are very close to the pioneer years here, very close to the real beginnings of history here. I don't like to call too much attention to my own age but I personally knew a man, knew him fairly well, who had owned a slave. I knew a man who was the owner of a slave. Now, that wasn't very much to be proud of, I'm sure, but it shows how close we are to some history that seems to be quite a ways away, that the life of that particular gentleman overlapped my own by a good many years. I personally knew a man - he died very recently - in the Poplar Point district, who, as a boy, had seen three Indians scalped by Red Lake Indians who had made one of their periodic journeys across from the country to the south, in order to wreak their vengeance on the Sioux who had fled here. These Sioux were working in the field when this young boy, as he was then, on his father's farm they were haying and a party of raiding Red Lake Indians dashed out from the bush and actually scalped three Indians in front of him.
Now, these things call to our minds what a new country we are; how close we are to some of that history, but as the Honourable Minister pointed out a little while ago, the old-timers that remember those things, that saw them personally, are fast getting away. Even the old-timers who talked to the old-timers won't be around indefinitely, and I can not tell those stories with the authority of the people who told them to me. I heard one day out near Westbourne, I heard Ed Lynch, who was a former member for Lakeside constituency, when the Lynch party, as they were called, gathered together, I heard Ed Lynch stand there in front of that big group of people, mainly descendants of the ones who had come in the so-called Lynch party, and heard him recount the story of them gathering up, not far from London, Ontario, and going by train to Moorhead; and then coming by wagon from there up here; settling out here beside Sturgeon Creek for some time; and then moving on to the Whitemud district up there near Westbourne; and to hear that story and hear it told of the early times, and how when the Lynch party was going in there, they met the Wallace family coming out, and three times the Wallace family had got their log house up to the eaves and three times the Indians had come in and pulled them down and scattered them all around because they didn't want settlement. They didn't object to exploration and trapping, but they didn't want settlement that far. And it's a tragedy, Mr. Chairman, that somebody hadn't been there to take down the story as it was told that day, but nobody was - nobody took it down, and there are very few people who now remember the Lynch story - and so on. And there are, as the Minister said, a lot of those facts and stories around yet and we should be trying to commemorate them.
Now, one other thing. On that list, Mr. Minister, have you got Flee Island, as well? Well, there's a battleground out there that should be commemorated too - one were the local Indians threw up a few weak fortifications to try and fight against these Sioux when they came in raiding and that's how Flee Island got its name, because when the local Indians went out to try and repel these invaders from outside and when they met with reverses, they fled back to that area where their few fortifications were, and their homes, and it got called Flee Island, and there's one of the battlegrounds out there that should be preserved. Have you got it on your list?
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the history of Manitoba will record that Flee Island has also been the home of a very distinguished gentleman in the public life of this province.
MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, I've been intrigued. I have been a member of this House for ten years and I think others are curious enough to know. I would like the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to describe exactly where Flee Island is located.
MR. CAMPBELL: Do you know how to spell it?
MR. HAWRYLUK: No, I don't.
MR. CAMPBELL: F - l - double e.
MR. MOLGAT: Before we leave the matter of historical sites, I wonder if the Minister could tell us what progress is being made with regard to one of the major historical sites in St. Boniface? I am referring to the Grey Nuns' Convent there. I understand there is some urgency in that case due to the fact that they intend to take over some of that property for additional construction, and it's a large building, one of the oldest in the province. Could he inform the House?
MR. BOULIC: There has been some correspondence undertaken with Ottawa on that subject. Of course, this is a very large bit of business; I think something like $100,000 is required, and we have no answer from Ottawa as yet.
MR. MOLGAT: Do you know of any date established insofar as the deadline either for the removal of that building or the time it will be torn down?
MR. BOULIC: No formal deadline, as far as I know.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Total vote for the department, $696,735. No. 3 - the Treasury.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to make a statement on the Treasury Department as a whole, but there is an announcement which I think I ought to make in the House in connection with the interest support rate for municipal water systems and matters of that sort. I have to announce that that rate is to be increased. The Act requires, as some members of the House will recall, that no guarantee shall be given unless the rate of interest on debentures issued by the municipality exceeds, in the opinion of the Treasurer, by more than one-half of one percentum the rate of interest cost at which the government could at the same time borrow monies on the security of its debentures. Well now, we have seen a very remarkable fluctuation in interest rates over the past twelve months. Last summer the provincial borrowing rate was extremely favorable. We were able to make certain borrowings in that period which enabled us to use an interest rate of 5 1/2% in connection with this support level. We haven't had any occasion to borrow recently, but we are under obligation of setting a rate that is one-half of one percent more than the rate at which the government could at the same time borrow monies itself, so under that particular clause of the Bill, we have no option but to make that increase.
Now, we make it because, as members know, the Government of Canada has been offering bonds on the market at a rate of about 5.68% recently, and if we were in the market we would probably have to pay a little bit more than that although we have been successful in borrowing it under the Canada rate in recent months, but we can't really expect that to be a permanent feature, so that we would have to set a rate, say, of half a percent above 5 3/4% which would bring it out at 6 1/4. This means that according to the statute, the municipalities which cannot borrow on the open market on their own credit at rates of 6 1/4% or lower, can apply to the province for a guarantee of interest on their bond. I might say that we will go farther than that and if the bonds cannot be sold even with our guarantee of interest at that rate, we ourselves will undertake to buy them outright. Now of course, this involves the question of the cut-off date for municipalities that are negotiating at the present time, and in setting this we followed the precedent that was established by the former government when they last raised interest rates themselves. And this is the governing feature which perhaps I should read: "Those municipalities which have proceeded to the stage in their financing where they have called for tenders for their sewer and water debentures with provincial guarantee of interest, have received a negative response, will be permitted to complete their financing at the previous rate of 5 1/2". An examination of the records indicates that this was the procedure which was followed in the spring of 1957 when the similar school debenture support rate was raised from 4 1/2% to 5 3/4%. This 6 1/4% rate will apply not only to the sewer and water bonds but also to other provincially assisted financing such as school debentures and seed cleaning plant loans.
I thought, Sir, that I should make this statement at the beginning of these estimates because I would rather that the House heard it from me here rather than any announcement we might be making outside the Chamber.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I think that my honourable friend is quite right in making it here. If I remember correctly, the government some time last year reduced the rate, reduced it from what...
MR. ROBLIN: We reduced it from 5 3/4 to 5 1/2. 1/4 of a percent.
MR. CAMPBELL: Of course, I am not being facetious in saying this, it is perfectly sincere, that instead of raising the interest rate, what the government could do, if it wanted to, would be to change the Act. Now if...
MR. ROBLIN: Yes, that's always a possibility but I think that - well, I can't say that I've given this matter prolonged consideration, I think that the principle that was established when the Act was written was probably a sound one and that is that when dealing with subordinate bodies that we should be dealing with them at a rate that is not the same, probably a little higher than our own rate. If we don't do that it then becomes obvious that all the bonds will be purchased by the Provincial Government instead of being purchased by the open market. So in order to take some advantage of whatever flexibility there may be in the open market, it's desirable to have a rate somewhat higher. I presume those were the thoughts that animated my predecessor when he set the regulation in the Act.
MR. CAMPBELL: I think no doubt they were, Mr. Chairman, but on the other hand, I think we have to realize the fact now, and I'm not interested in trying to blame anybody or fix the blame for it, not at this stage at least, but I think we have to recognize the fact that the interest rates are becoming so high that it's going to be extremely difficult for many of these municipalities to borrow at all, and even if they can borrow at the rates that they will have to pay it will be an almost unconscionable burden on their taxpayers, and I would recommend to the government that they consider that that might be one place, and it might be one of the best places in which to make a further contribution to the municipalities. However, I'm sure the government will be taking that under advisement themselves and I would recommend at least the thought to the Honourable the First Minister as one of the considerations that he might develop at the conference in Ottawa, because certainly the municipalities are going to be mentioned at that time. Their problems are going to be dealt with no doubt by the provincial representatives there and something, I feel that something will simply have to be done in order to ease this load for the municipal people.
MR. ROBLIN: I quite agree. We have placed this item on the agenda last March when the matter was first proposed. We have placed this question of municipal financing and interest rates on the agenda. We have certain proposals we intend to make to the Federal Government that, if accepted, would provide a substantial measure of relief. I don't know how sucessful we will be but the committee can rely on us to do the best we can in presenting that argument.
MR. GRAY: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether my question is in place now or not. The bank reports that the savings at the bank now for which they pay 2 1/2% is increasing all the time. I'm just wondering whether it would be advisable for the province to sell its bonds to the public instead of selling it to the individual, to sell it to the public over the counter and it would probably be an inducement for them, say, to get another 3 1/2%, and I think the Province of Manitoba is just as secure, or the people of Manitoba, is just as secure as the banks are and probably this way they could get in a lot of money by paying less interest.
MR. ROBLIN: The question of a provincial bank, either of the savings bank type suggested by my honourable friend or various other types that are possible, is a very intriguing one, and I think it might not be out of the way for me to say that we are giving some study at the present time to our financial resources in that respect.
I mustn't mislead the committee into thinking that there is any settled policy or any plan that the province has--is giving consideration to in that respect, because that would not be correct, but I will say that there are certain speculative conversations going on between the members of the department on that point. Whether anything will come of it is a very moot point indeed, but we're going to have a look at it and see if there is anything that commends itself as being practical and secure.
MR. MILLER: Do I understand the First Minister to say that we jump the interest rate on school debentures from 4 1/2 to 5 3/4 in one jump?
MR. ROBLIN: Yes, Sir.
MR. MILLER: I wonder--I have no recollection of that, Mr. Chairman, I do recollect that there are two funds - one operated under the method that he described, namely, one-half of one percent over the provincial borrowing rate, and I think that rate was set through advice from the Treasury Department every six months. But there is another fund, and I am just wondering whether he's not referring to that - it's the school district reserve fund, under which we loaned money at the lower rate because I think my recollection is that the School Lands Trust Fund operated under the one-half of one percent above the provincial borrowing rate.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, the school debenture support rate was changed in the spring of 1957. It was 4 1/2% and was raised to 5 3/4%.
MR. MILLER: Under the School Lands Trust Fund?
MR. ROBLIN: The school debenture support rate--that's as...
MR. MILLER: There are two funds, Mr. Chairman.
MR. ROBLIN: You may be right, but the support rate was the one that I'm concerned with.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1 - Administration - (a) Salaries-Minister.
MR. MOLGAT: On the subject of salaries, not that I want to do any Honourable Minister out of his salary, but as I understand the situation at the moment, the Honourable the First Minister is also Provincial Treasurer, and we did pass for the honourable gentleman earlier today the sum of $10,000.00. It would now appear that we are passing an additional sum of $8,000.00. Following on that conclusion, one can only conclude that either he is raising his salary to $18,000.00 per year or that he has in mind certain changes in that department of which we have not yet been advised.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I must confess that this is not a concealed device for raising the Treasurer's salary. He's going to get what he always got and no more. As to the second speculative question raised by my honourable friend, I think time may divulge whether or not he's on the track or not.
MR. MOLGAT: In the meantime, who is going to get the...if we pass this bill?
MR. ROBLIN: Well, I'm sorry to say that it's going to--if voted, will remain in the estimates of the department. I think if members will observe, they will see that in every department the full salary of the Minister has been estimated for. That does not mean that any Minister is going to be paid twice for what he is getting because that's not the case. Each person will just draw a single salary, but we have considered it advisable to make provision now for the salary of the various Ministers whether or not there is an appointment at the present time of a separate Minister for that department or not. There may be later on - there may not be. If a Minister is not appointed, no one will be paid.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Other salaries.
MR. CAMPBELL: ...but I think I agree completely with the First Minister in this, that - in fact all of us feel that what he said is correct, that no one will receive a double salary because of this and I think I would want to support him, too. He doesn't need to take the House as a whole into his confidence as to which one of the many able people that he has to choose from, that he might decide to take into a Cabinet portfolio. I think that is primarily his business. If he wishes to consult me personally on it, I'd be very glad to advise him, but I don't even suggest that that is necessary. I think one of the many heavy responsibilities that a man in my honourable friend's position has to take - has to shoulder, is that one, and I think we should be prepared and are prepared to see that he has every leeway at this time in making his arrangements.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Other salaries, $162,180.00 -
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, under this item, I notice a very substantial increase, and I wonder if the operation of the Treasury Board comes under this item. And I wonder if the First Minister would give us a full and exhaustive explanation of the duties and responsibilities of the Treasury Board, and also whether he would be kind enough to give us the salary range - present salary and contemplated salary range of any Deputy minister. I think this is the first item - he will notice that the Deputy Minister is classified as under "Other Salaries." I noticed there is an increase there of 12 bodies, and I would also like to know the amount - the names and the amount of the additions and the salaries proposed.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I can give my honourable friend the information about the salaries first. The Deputy Ministers' salaries in the government as a whole remain unchanged, the $12,000.00 being the top of the scale. While I'm on that point, I must say that that is one of the matters that must receive consideration in the very near future, because it seems to me that with other changes that have been made elsewhere, that some reconsideration will have to be given on these points.
Now, respecting the additional employees which my honourable friend would like to hear about, I think he probably won't mind if I leave out the odd stenographer and things of that sort. Well, we have Mr. C. D. Smith, the Chief of the Budget Division - $8,655.00; L. S. M. Partridge, Chief Economic Research Division - $8,655.00; H. C. Taylor, Chief Organization and Methods Division - $8,655.00; those are the top ranges. Then we come down to some of the Senior Staff--Research Analyst II, Mr. C. M. Chesney - $7,050.00; H. E. Hollis, Budget Research Analyst II - $5,820.00; R. N. Jarrow, Research Analyst II - $5,760.00; and B. Hambley, Organization and Methods Analyst II - $6,690.00; P. S. Kelly, Organization and Methods Analyst II - $5,820.00; G. Sinclair, same classification, Grade I, $2,880.00; and then some stenographers. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that there are a number of posts in this particular branch which are provided for in the estimates, but for which no applicant has as yet been appointed.
MR. MILLER: ...at this point may I interrupt? Have all these positions been advertised?
MR. ROBLIN: Oh, yes, these have all been handled in the usual Civil Service fashion. We have not made any change in the procedures for engaging people in the government service. There is a competition, interview, and all the usual arrangements that members will be familiar with. But there are half a dozen other appointments--I wonder if it's that many--a few anyway, that are provided for in the estimates at around the $5,000.00 or $6,000.00 range, which have not yet been filled, and I don't know when they will be filled. I can't say, but provision is made and they are included in this figure here.
Now, I've got quite a lot of material about the Treasury Board here. I wonder if I can find the right place to start, because I am very interested in discussing this particular activity with members of the committee. The Treasury Board is really divided into three sections. It's the Budget Analysis and Research Department, which name pretty well speaks for itself. There is the Organization and Methods Section, which again speaks for itself, and if I can find the title of the third branch, perhaps as I go along I'll come across it--it just escapes from my mind at the present time. Anyway, the main purpose of this branch is to provide a means of making an examination of the various problems that confront the government from time to time, particularly in the development of new programs, and also to look over the procedures and methods that are presently being enforced to see whether they are in all respects satisfactory, and to act as a clearing house for the requests for information and for the various activities of other departments who may be interested. Also, they are given tasks from time to time by the Treasuary Board to perform.
The budget staff perform the duties of forecasting the budget requirements for this year, and for years to come. They inform us of the financial implications of the policies that we adopt, because it was explained at some length by politicians during the last election that these various policies that are adopted have not to be paid for only one year but for the years that follow, and it is necessary to have some kind of an idea of where any particular policy decision leads you in terms of dollars and cents. One of the things that this body has to do is to make sure that we don't get--that when we accept a policy we know what it's going to cost us over a reasonable period, and as far as one can forecast that expenditure, make sure that it remains within the bounds of our reasonable revenue during that same time.
The three divisions are the Budget Division, the Economic Division and the Research and Methods Divsion--the Organization and Methods Division. The Organization and Methods Division is very useful, because it's really our money-saving section of this board. They, on invitation from departments, no department is compelled to pay any attention to these people, but on invitation, and they've had plenty of invitations, the organization and methods people will go in to any particular department and examine the policy or the procedure they are following to see whether any improvements can be made. I have mentioned previously that the Queen's
Printer had been through this particular form of examination and a saving of around $50,000.00 a year was the result of that examination. One small item, of course, was the one we talked about--had such fun with the last time, namely, the printing of the Speech from the Throne. We reduced the cost of it to a very small fraction of what it was previously. In itself, it's not a big thing, but it is symptomatic of the kind of job that these people are doing. I mentioned earlier on this afternoon--that by checking into the tenders and the methods proposed by the people that were microfilming, we were able to divise a way of doing it that would save us $78,000.00 over and above what we were originally asked to pay for that important and necessary service. I mentioned those as giving some examples of the kind of thing that these people do.
Now, there's another point that brought about a lot of debate last time we met as to whether we were making a claim for something that we shouldn't claim, when we said that this body had been very helpful in the population problems of this Province. Now, the Dominion Bureau of Statistics have their own idea as to what the population of Manitoba is, and on that population data our tax-rental payments are calculated. The investigation for this department into matters that arose in Health and Welfare led them to suspect that the estimates of the Federal Government were wrong, and I think that we have convinced the Department of--the Bureau of Statistics that they were wrong for Manitoba, and that I think there are 15,000 more people in the province than they said there were. That results in an increase of half a million dollars in our tax-rental payment. Now, we've had the population people out here; they've gone over our case--I don't want to be premature but my recollection is that they've accepted our findings and that as a result our tax-rental payments this year will be half a million dollars higher than they would otherwise be. Now, there was a long argument last time as to whether that would have happened anyway, and really we shouldn't claim it and all that kind of thing, and members are entitled to their opinions, but nevertheless, this board did dig up that fact, and they dug it up now. Consequently, we are getting that very considerable increase in tax-rentals.
Now, the sort of problem that they take on--well, here's one--it's not very much, but the Greater Winnipeg Metropolitan Report. The bill that we were presented with at first for printing horrified us, so we, with all--with no--I don't wish to be considered critical of the people that did the report because it was a routine matter with them, but we threw it at the organization methods and they saved us $5,000.00 in the printing of that report. They--saving that will be made by the Department of Education in preparation of student marks, that I mentioned before, under the IBM system which these people have the primary responsibility for working on, will save this department $3,000.00 in the course of this particular year. And you can go through various items of expenditure of that sort and find where substantial savings have been made by the result of--by these people, using their know-how and being for the most part, having nothing else to do but to look into matters of these sorts.
I think it is obvious without--it is not necessary to criticize any department to make this statement--but I think it is obvious that when you are engaged in the day-to-day operation of a certain function, particularly when you've been doing it for a long time, you begin to build up in your own mind--the department builds up procedures which seem to them to be right, they've gone on that way a long time and it's worked okay and they can't see any reason for changing it, they're right in the midst of it. Now these people come in and they will look it over and they can very often make suggestions as to how improvements can be made which appear to an outsider who is observing, which doesn't appear to the person in it. The trouble these days, of course, is that Ministers and higher civil servants really haven't any time to think. We are so busy doing the day to day operations and handling the messy pieces of paper that float onto our desks in mountains, and this applies particularly to Deputy Ministers who are even worse off than Ministers in this respect, that it's very hard to do any thinking and get perspective on these matters and it's helpful, so they tell us, to have somebody like the Treasury Board to come in and look into these matters and see what can be done.
Now they help also--they help various departments of government in preparing their briefs in dealing with Ottawa. Now, there's a lot of that that's done on a departmental level we know, but the Treasury Board takes the different departments' findings and activities, sifts them through and puts them together in one piece. Now we are--I don't know whether I really ought to discuss this point because we haven't advanced far enough to make a statement, but we will
get various negotiations going about matters concerning Ottawa and ourselves which are on a cost-sharing basis, and Ottawa will come up with one formula for sharing the cost which may be unfavourable to the province. And one of the things that these people have to do is to try and devise and examine all the reasons for more favourable solutions to the problem. Now this, of course, is something that you may say could be done in a department and undoubtedly it has been done in the department, but the Board hs the opportunity of putting together the views of all the departments and looking at the thing as a whole. They have the advantage of taking a fresh look at some of these problems that have been kicking around in the departments for years, and I hope shortly to be able to make a statement on one of these efforts which will result in the saving of several million dollars to the Province of Manitoba. It looks as if we are going to get our own way on that point and I must say that if we do, it is because of the thought that has been put into it by these men who have been given this particular job to do. Now those are a few of the matters which the Treasury Board have developed to the point where a concrete statement of some sort can be made.
In addition to that there is a host of problems that are presented to them, for example, what about this use of government cars? We heard a lot of talk during the election about the fact that the taking the PG plates off the government cars was a calculated device to try and indicate to the public--try and conceal from the public, let us say, the use made of government cars by the government, or perhaps by the civil service or perhaps by both. Well, it wasn't. Personally, I must say I couldn't care less whether the plates are PG or whether they are just ordinary plates. I don't think it makes much difference. My own opinion is that if anyone really thinks we are trying to deceive anybody, well that's not what we're trying to do. We'll put them back on. I don't think that it cuts any ice at all. Nevertheless, it does refer to an important matter, namely, the use of cars in the government, and I'm sure that all of us share the view that there is room for improvement and room for economy in the operation of automobiles by the government service, and that's not any reflection on the civil service itself. The fact is that these things have grown up over the years and every so often you've got to take a look at it and chop it down to size. Now that's what these people are doing. They have been given the task of reviewing this and comparing it with what other governments do; to recommend as to whether or not the pooling system for the use of automobiles can be brought into effect in certain areas and generally how we can economize on this matter.
Now so far substantial savings have been recorded by the recommendations of this body. I have one figure here someplace. I can't seem to find it at the moment but so far we have been able to effect a considerable saving running into tens of thousands of dollars in purchasing methods and procedures on this point and certain other policy matters are being discussed which, if accepted, and it seems likely that they will be, will mean savings in the term of $100,000.00 or more annually to the Government of Manitoba in the operation of its motor vehicles. Now these are substantial matters and I think it is easy to be seen from what I have said that although this board has resulted in an increase in the civil service, and although this board has resulted in an increase in the wage bill that we ask the taxpayers to pay for this branch of the service, yet I think it can be claimed that they are paying their way in a very substantial measure indeed, and that many of the savings that I have indicated are not one-time-only matters but are savings which will be repeated each year. So I think it can be said that this Treasury Board idea is proving itself to be a good housekeeping policy for the government of this province. I claim no credit; the government claims no credit for the idea. There has been a Treasury Board at Ottawa for a long time and there's been this kind of organization and methods examinations for a long time.
Incidentally, I forgot to say that when departments come in asking for increase in their establishment in the civil service, they have to go through this particular mangle to make sure that the establishment increases are thoroughly justified by the circumstances. That kind of thing goes on at Ottawa. It goes on in the United Kingdom. In the Treasury Board I had some experience of it there during the war. It is done in the Province of Saskatchewan and on the whole it has turned out to be a good thing.
Now I want to make it quite clear that, contrary to the views expressed by some members opposite, the Treasury Board doesn't walk rough-shod over the departments. Nor does the Treasury Board tell any Ministers what to do. Now I can understand that it might appear that
way to men who have not operated with this kind of a Treasury Board. Perhaps it's a joke in some respects to talk of it in that way. I can see the humorous side of it. One has to watch out that this sort of thing doesn't happen. But I want to assure the House that that is not the case at the present time and I trust that it never will be.
The Treasury Board itself is, of course, a committee of Cabinet--it is a financial committee of Cabinet. It consists of the Provincial Secretary, the Minister of Education, the Minister of Mines and myself, and these men operate under the Treasury Board and at the direction of the Treasury Board. They do not invade any Minister's autonomy or jurisdiction. If he wants them there, he has to ask for them. We don't send them, and they've got requests that will keep them busy for quite some time to come in and do jobs for the various departments that are concerned. I might say, and perhaps this will reinforce my point a little bit, that the minutes of Treasury Board, even those matters which are not of sufficient consequence to be referred to Cabinet as individual items, the minutes of Treasury Board are part of the Cabinet proceedings, and it is my duty at Cabinet to draw the attention of any member of Cabinet to the general content of these particular minutes to see how they are accepted by the Cabinet and the Cabinet has the responsibility of approving those minutes, so that we have put in there, I think, the proper check to make sure that even though the board is a committee of Cabinet, that it operates only under the express approval of the Cabinet. That covers routine matters. Major matters of importance are not decided by the Treasury Board; they are decided only by the Cabinet. The Treasury Board has only the power to refer them to the Cabinet so that we will have no danger, as far as I can see, of any Minister being undermined in any way or put upon by the people on Treasury Board. And the personnel of the board itself is not sacrosanct. I'm sure there'll be rotation from time to time of those who might be interested in doing that very important work.
Well that, Mr. Speaker, is a brief overview of some of the things that the Treasury Board has been doing. I think that it is paying its way in a very large manner as far as the taxpayers of Manitoba are concerned and we believe it to be a valuable adjunct to carrying on the government.
MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, could the First Minister tell us who are the members of the Treasury Board and what they are paid?
MR. ROBLIN: I thought I just did that, Mr. Chairman, but I'll do it again. The members of the Treasury Board are the Honourable...
MR. GUTTORMSON: Pardon me, I'm not referring to the members in the Cabinet.
MR. ROBLIN: Well, the only members of the Treasury Board are the members of the Cabinet. If you are asking for the staff of the Treasury Board, I just read out to the Honourable Member for Rhineland...
MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, I heard those names. I thought that there was another body of men along with those.
MR. ROBLIN: No, there are the people who have been doing Treasury jobs for quite a while who are on the board, for example, the Deputy Treasurer is Secretary of the Treasury Board, Mr. Stewart Anderson, Mr. Rouse is the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Board and I think those two gentlemen--yes, he's director of the budget--those two gentlemen together with the names that I read out previously represent the senior officials on the Treasury Board. There may be one or two others in the background but I think I've given the committee the main picture in respect of that.
MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I was very interested in the statement given by the First Minister in his capacity as Provincial Treasurer. I recall at the last session, I thought at least, that he mentioned the fact that he followed the Ottawa procedure. Is that correct?
MR. ROBLIN: No, not in all respects, Mr. Chairman...
MR. MILLER: What I am getting at is whether or not the Treasury Board, as such, the committee of Cabinet has been given powers similarly to those given by the Governor-in-Council to the Treasury Board at Ottawa because they are very, very substantial and I mention these, and I have the Act in front of me.
MR. ROBLIN: I can relieve my honourable friend's mind and tell him the answer is no. We have not given the Treasury Board by Order-in-Council or otherwise the authorities that he speaks of.
MR. MILLER: In other words, just by practice you have extended the powers of the old Provincial Treasury Board to take more matters under consideration than they did, because I understand him to say that in the matter of establishment, the Treasury Board is now substituted for the old establishment committee in Cabinet. In other words, the function of--we had committees of Cabinet; we had a Treasury Board; we had an establishment committee; not necessarily the same people, but there were no specific powers given to any of these committees except the power to recommend to the entire Cabinet, and I take it that that is the procedire you are still following--recommendation of the acceptance. In other words, I think you said that in your capacity as chairman, that you submitted any matters considered by the Treasury Board to the entire Cabinet for approval.
MR. ROBLIN: I am not just sure what my honourable friend is driving at, but I might tell him that the Treasury Board does operate on matters of less than first-class importance on its own. It makes its own decisions and records them, but those decisions are included in our minutes and, therefore, are subject to review by the Cabinet. Now in most cases the Cabinet does not wish to reopen the matter in which cases they carry on, but they have the opportunity of doing so and that is the point that I wish to make. Now we have not given by Order-in-Council to our Treasury Board any specific duty as they have in Ottawa. The way in which we formed our board was very simple. We got the experts in Ottawa and the experts in Saskatchewan, by the way, where they adopted this device a few years ago, to come to see us--got the Deputy Treasurer and people like that--and we spend several days with them and with our own people finding out how they operated and we picked what we thought were the best features of both systems and put them into ours. Now that is how we got going.
Now I'm unable to say how my honourable friend operated on the Treasury Board when he was there, but I can say that to the best of our information from what was available to us when we came in, the functions of this board are altogether deeper and wider than the functions entertained by the previous board, and the fact that we have been able to make these improvements and that we have this--these three specific branches of the board with three specific responsibilities given to them, I think would indicate that. I think probably it's true that the Establishment Committee has been amalgamated with this and because it comes under organization and methods, and establishments all go through here. This board also takes over the annual review of departmental estimates that were done by the old Treasury Board, I presume. We still do that under this Board as well, so that is I think an explanation on that score, but the point I want to make is that while this Board does not operate at a lower level on its own intiative, takes decisions and circulates them to those concerned, those decisions in turn are subject to review by Cabinet every week after the Treasury Board has published its minutes and any member of the Cabinet has a--raises points that might be of interest to him should he wish to do so. Major points, of course, the Treasury Board does not seek to settle itself. They go to Cabinet directly and specifically.
MR. MILLER: How often does the Treasury Board meet, Mr. Chairman?
MR. ROBLIN: As often as required, usually at least once a week. That's the usual procedure. If we can't finish our business in one sitting we may meet again. It's usually once a week.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, this has been very interesting hearing the First Minister on this explanation and I'm sure it's very informative to all the members of the Committee. There's one or two questions I would like to ask. They may seem picayune in some respect. The First Minister, when he was talking of the saving that this board and this staff have made, mentioned that in the printing of the Metropolitan Investigating Committee's Report that on the printing of that there was a saving of $5,000.00 on that one item alone. I think it would be interesting if he has it available to inform us how that saving was accomplished in that particular instance. And also I'd like to raise this point--it may be an improper one--we understand from press reports and releases that the Deputy Minister is going to leave us and it naturally makes a question in our minds as to whether or not the position is in the process of being filled or a man trained for the position at the present time; or whether or not the government may be going outside of the Civil--present Civil Service in order to fill the position.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, on the first point I cannot give you the details you ask. I can merely say that to the best of my knowledge the original bill was $15,000.00 and they
were able to get it down to $10,000.00. How they did it I can't tell you. I think if you've seen the report, it's a very satisfactory printing job and it's very satisfactory in that way. Now regarding the Deputy Treasurer, I'm rather--I'm pleased my honourable friend raised that point because it gives me an opportunity to refer to it. I think that the Province of Manitoba is losing one of its most able and devoted Civil Servants with the news that the Deputy Provincial Treasurer is accepting an appointment elsewhere. I have only been working with him for about a year, but I regard him as a truly brilliant public servant, and I can't say how much I regret the fact that he is leaving us. I must say that I'm really surprised that we have been able to keep him as long as we have. I'm sure if it hadn't been for his loyalty to the job and the province, that he's had many opportunities to go before now at most attractive offers, and I really mustn't blame him for accepting this one because it's something that I think he owes to himself and his family to accept, but I merely wish to record, and I'm sure that former Provincial Treasurers now in the House will agree with me when I say that he is an absolutely top-drawer public servant and he has been of great value to this province. He has, I'm sure, saved the people of this province--now this sounds like an exaggeration but I think it to be true, hundreds and thousands of dollars in his skill and knowledge in dealing with the bond market and matters of that sort, and I'm very happy indeed to have the opportunity of paying a word of tribute to Mr. Anderson, and to tell him for myself, and I know I can speak for my predecessors in this post, to tell him how much we appreciate what he has done, and that he goes with our heartiest good wishes for a successful future.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to endorse everything that the Honourable the First Minister has said with regard to Stewart Anderson. I completely agree with him that he is one of the outstanding civil servants in Canada, and one of the most brilliant men that is, has been my pleasure to know, and when you add to that a most engaging personality and a great capacity for hard work, you really have a man with all the qualifications that the Premier has referred to. So I can't say how highly I have always appreciated Mr. Anderson too. I know of the -- some of the former offers that he has been made, and it was simply by a -- because of a sense of loyalty to this province that he thought had done so well for him. By the way, he is one of the rather unusual cases of where we have coaxed a man away from the big Province of Ontario, because he's not a native Manitoban. He came from the Province of Ontario and we got him here after World War II and he has certainly developed into one of our outstanding civil servants. I join completely in everything that the Honourable the First Minister has said regarding him and during my years there I came to consider him a close personal friend as well as a valued public servant.
Now, having said that and it's said most sincerely, I would like to say just a word or two about the very excellent statement that the Honourable the First Minister has given us regarding the work of the Treasury Board, and I do say most heartily that I appreciate the very complete way that the Honourable the First Minister can give this information. He can make a case sound very good and I'm not suggesting that it's a poor case. I think he's perhaps sometimes had to have not the best case to work on, but he always makes it sound good whether it's good or bad and I'm not passing judgment on this case as yet. But just as he accused me a while ago, and I didn't mind the accusation that I am inclined to be allergic to anything so complicated as a study, I'm afraid that I must confess that I am inclined to be a bit allergic to these experts - experts in the most of fields. I have developed a certain allergy to them. I certainly agree that the service that a great many of our civil servants have given us, Mr. Anderson is a conspicuous example, and we could name several more who are still in the service of the province, but a lot of the imported and local experts in other regards, I don't put in the same category. I hope that these groups -- that my honourable friend has mentioned will work out as well as we expect them to, but I'm going to withhold my own judgment for a while. So often it seems to me that they work out in the way of the efficiency expert that I heard about, who explained to his wife that she was most inefficient in the way that she got his breakfast because she didn't do things in the most efficient way, and if she would follow certain routines, instead of taking ten minutes to get his breakfast she could get it in six, and following a good deal of discussion of the matter he found out that he was getting both their breakfasts in twelve minutes. Well, I think that kind of thing happens often with these experts and I'm inclined, I admit I'm inclined to be a bit sceptical of them.
Now if the First Minister really believes that the Federal Bureau of Statistics, if they're the ones who operate the census and I guess they are, if he really believes that the Federal Bureau of Statistics will accept somebody else's figures on the population of Manitoba, I'll take his word for it, but I would never have believed that it would happen. If they do, that's all in the good, and I'm not going to attempt to go into the argument that was developed last fall or this spring, I forget which it was, with regard to the 10,000 or 15,000 additional souls that have been found. If the federal department will accept that estimate, then that's fine, but until it has been done I'll continue to believe that it's unlikely, because they're very difficult to convince and the point that was made was that eventually once they found that the figures were up, they would make an adjustment in our tax-rentals on that basis.
Now to continue with my skepticism, I realize that what the Honourable, the First Minister has said about the use of cars is something that needs constant attention. I quite recognize that, but there again so frequently these changes in systems, even though they're worked out by experts and men of great capacity and goodwill, I admit, frequently they too work out in the way that it did at Ottawa. We had a wave of economy down there some, some years ago and it was decided that the Ministers' cars were going to be discontinued down there, and that was done. But what was done along with it? The Minister was given an extra $2,000.00 per year on his salary and that has continued up until the present time, so that instead of the use of the car, it cost the taxpayers of Canada $2,000.00 per year per Minister likely for all time to come.
And that is so characteristic of what happens on so many of these plans, and I can't help looking at my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and I'll close with this remark, that if all the things that my honourable friend the First Minister has been telling us about this Treasury Board, all of those things are so good and so valuable, and I'm not denying the good intentions of the government, if they all are, then my honourable friend the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources certainly should put through another bill, like Bill No. 2, because you shouldn't let a thing as valuable as that operate just on an ad hoc basis as we used to do with those things that he has no in Bill No. 2. He had to put a bill in on it and make it sound really big.
MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the only thing I can say to my honourable friend across the floor is that there is none so blind as those that will not see. I want to take this occasion, however, to say something about the resignation of Mr. Stewart Anderson and perhaps I have some special association with him that I would like to refer to. For a period of practically three years I had the privilege, and it was a privilege, to be Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, and at that time Mr. Anderson was one of the Commissioners and still is one of the Commissioners of the Civil Service Commission. He and Mr. Newton came to the Province of Manitoba and did the work which -- on which our present Civil Service Commission organization is based. They performed the classification of jobs; the establishment or the original studies upon which the Cabinet made the pay scales; they wrote the job descriptions and established the procedures in what I can say, on the basis of some experience, is a well run and independently run Civil Service. I took the opportunity on more than one occasion when in opposition to attest to the fact that the Civil Service of this province was run without political interference. During my time of office, at no time was I approached - at any time that is in my time of office in the Civil Service Commission, at no time was I ever approached improperly by a member of the Cabinet or any member of the Legislature improperly to influence an appointment. I was glad to say that then, but I would say this, that it is also another tribute to the work of Mr. Anderson because he began with the present form of organization of the Civil Service; lent his talents and his energy to it in such a way that it has carried on still under his administration in a most satisfactory fashion. Since becoming a member of the Treasury Board, I've had an even closer opportunity to observe what has been described, and properly so, as the brilliance of his mind and to work with one of the most devoted, I was going to say servants, but one of the most devoted workers in any cause, in any sphere, that I have ever had the pleasure to be associated with. The Leader of the Opposition stated it very well when he paid his tribute to his personal qualities - his qualities of humour and of friendship and of kindliness, and his interest in community affairs quite apart from his service to the Province of Manitoba. I think it's an example and he must have been an inspiration to others in the public service, and I thought I should like to take this occasion -- I would not like
the occasion to pass without paying as warm a tribute as I can, in the words that I can summon on this occasion, to a man of this calibre and my deep regret that we are to lose him.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could be allowed the privilege of intruding another thought on our -- the deliberations of the committee at this moment, and that is with respect to the Interim Supply Bill. I must say we've got a little bit carried away because I hoped to do this about ten minutes ago, so that if the House would - if the committee would consider this proposition, I would like to enquire whether the committee would be willing to suspend the rules and consider the Interim Supply motion in committee at the present time and then put it through its other stages - it probably would take us about ten minutes - put it through its other stages tonight, then we can have Royal Assent tomorrow and it will make it possible to pay something on the indemnities. I should have done this a few minutes ago but we got carried away with the interesting discussion we were in, and I just wonder if I have the indulgence of the committee to do that now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Did the ... I ...
MR. ROBLIN: In that case I'll ask the Chairman to call that Resolution.
MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, we're not in any disagreement at all. I was suggesting to my honourable friends along the front row here that it might be a good idea if we tried to make a deal with the First Minister that we do this tomorrow afternoon if the private members would give up their time, and then that maybe we wouldn't have to sit tomorrow evening. The suggestion seemed to be meeting with great approval over at this side and I just wondered what it was over there. Now if the Press weren't listening I would tell the committee the truth and that is that I wouldn't want people to think that we showed any unseemly haste just because the matter of cheques was mentioned. I don't know that -- I don't know that one day's delay will temper the interest in that regard at all, but if, if it's necessary to put that through tonight, I always rather dislike the picture of the number of times that we have to go in and out of committee in dealing with thirty million dollars or something of that amount, and I think perhaps that it makes a better impression if we would break it up into two parts and do some of it tomorrow afternoon. As far as we are concerned, we would be very, very glad to give away the private members' time in order to do part of it at that time.
MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I understand that there were conversations between the whips - I don't know if they were all in it with a similar proposition, and how far it went I don't know, but I know -- I believe as far as the whip of the Liberal Party and the whip of the C.C.F. Party were concerned, that we were agreeable as far as our resolutions were concerned to forego them and go into government business tomorrow afternoon and have Friday evening off. I think that was the general understanding between the whips on this side, only on this side that's true, Mr. Chairman, I don't know if the First Minister was brought in on this or he was aware of that, but as far as we're concerned I would agree with the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition that -- I think this can be done tomorrow, and in speaking of that situation, now I know full well, and I know my predecessor in this particular position often brought this up when we reached about closing at 11:00 o'clock. If the government are anxious and desirous that the resolution be handled in the committee at this time I guess we'll just have to go along with it, but I would like to make an earnest appeal to the First Minister and the government, that where possible, unless we're in the middle of some heated debate at some time where it doesn't matter too much what the time is, that where possible the closing hour be generally recognized at the hour of 11:00 o'clock, or preferably as far as I'm personally concerned, 10:00 o'clock, because after all we all are aware of the jobs that we have to do. We're here from early morn now until late at night and I'd like you to bear that in mind. Again I say, Mr. Chairman, I understand that there were those conversations between the whips on this side. Whether they got to the other side or not, I do not know, but I do join with the Leader of the Opposition in making that proposal to the First Minister if he's not aware of it at the present time.
MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to clarify the position of the whips in this matter. I did discuss this with the whip of the C.C.F. Party and got complete agreement from their side. I forwarded the suggestion to the whip on the far side of the House, and without wishing to implicate him in the least, I would gather that he showed some interest in the proposition
but again without wanting to blame anyone for the decision, I believe it was vetoed.
MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I won't proceed with the motion now. It requires unanimous consent and I see it's really not the opinion of the House we should proceed, so I will ...
MR. CAMPBELL: ...to give consent all ...Why not go part way tonight?
MR. ROBLIN: No, I don't think that we should. It's after eleven; I'll take the advice given me and suggest the committee rise and we can do this tomorrow. There's -- as pointed out, there's really no pressing urgency and we can deal with the matter in the regular way and I wouldn't like it to be thought that we are pressing the matter at all, so perhaps the committee should now rise. We've made fair progress this evening. The question of Saturday evening and Friday evening is a difficult one. I'm going to be very unpopular, I'm afraid, on this score. We're losing a whole day on Monday; we don't meet Wednesday nights, and we're going to lose the day when the Queen comes; and I really am of the opinion that now that we haven't been meeting nights heretofore, it's been pretty easy, getting off early in the afternoon and I think now we should really buckle down and carry on with these. The Ministers are ready to go ahead and I think that we should have private members' day tomorrow, as usual - there's an important debate coming up - and then proceed in the evening with government business, and we can deal with this Motion of Supply at that time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the committee rise and report? Call in the Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have adopted certain resolutions and have asked me to sit again.
MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, that the report of the Committee be received.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.]
MR. ROBLIN: I suppose the next motion, Mr. Speaker, is one of adjournment. I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Resources, that the House do now adjourn.
[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2:30 Friday afternoon.]
Page revised: 13 July 2011
