Manitoba Hansard

Volume I No. 9a - 2:30 p.m., Tuesday, November 4, 1958

Page Index


Table of Contents


2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, November 4th, 1958

[Opening Prayer read by Mr. Speaker. ]

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions

Reading and Receiving Petitions

Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees

Notice of Motion

Introduction of Bills

Orders of the Day

HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to refer to, two press reports and to make just a brief statement to correct what I think may be an erroneous impression. I refer to a report appearing in the final edition of the Winnipeg Tribune on November the 3rd, 1958, and in the Winnipeg Free Press on November the 3rd, 1958.

These reports rise, I believe, out of committee, the special select committee of the House meeting yesterday, in which we were dealing with the Bill, Number 2, and it refers to, the heading in one instance is "$10,000.00 teacher salaries are out" and goes on to say the Provincial Government intends to pare the big salary increases recommended for senior teachers in the interim report of the Royal Commission on Education. And in the other story, "the government's new scale of salaries for teachers will not be as generous as the one suggested by the Royal Commission on Education in its interim report."

Now, Mr. Speaker, I know that it's sometimes difficult to keep these distinctions clear, but I had hoped that I had made it reasonably clear, that we are discussing grants toward teachers salaries and that we are not proposing to set teachers salaries. That the teachers salaries will, in effect, will in fact, be established by the teachers and the schoolboard in the usual way and all that is being provided are grants toward teachers salaries, according to a schedule which will come into effect at an early date. So that I would just like to make this point. There's no criticism of the news stories...I appreciate the difficulty of maintaining these distinctions, but I didn't want any misunderstandings to be created that we are proposing to set teachers salaries, because we're not.

MR. E. PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to point out to you that I just found a gem in this Hansard Volume 1, Number 7. Apparently on that day I greeted you in a most unusual way. On page two it says here: "Mr. E. Prefontaine (I spoke French for a few minutes and then am quoted as saying) Good day, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question." I did not say that, possibly. I don't know how they got that impression that I said 'Good Day Mr. Speaker.'

MR. SPEAKER: Well if you did say it, I didn't hear it.


Adjourned debate on proposed motion of the honourable member for Roblin. Speech from the Throne. The honourable member for La Verendrye.

MR. S. ROBERTS (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I represent a wholly rural constituency, the constituency of La Verendrye. Its location is, the centre of it is approximately 20 miles south of here and east and west it runs considerably over 100 miles from the west side of the Red River to the Ontario border; and except for Falcon Lake which is a tourist resort area, except for that small area on the east end of the constituency the whole of the constituency is agricultural, it is rural, the people in it are farmers, foresters, the services in my constituency deal with farmers and foresters. So if it has been said, as it has, that I am not perhaps sufficiently humble in this House, I would like to say this, that if there is any group more in need of help from governments, from businessmen, from the public as a whole, than the farmer is, it is the forester of this province. And I think that being urgent, being in a hurry to try to provide some form of help to these people is not being presumptuous.

The woodsmen of this province, in the east part of the province, live in the fringes of the forested area, some of them live in it. Ironically our forests are potentially wealthy, extremely wealthy. Ironically the people who live about the forests and in the forests are very poor. They are in dire need of help. These people have little or no other form of income other than the forests in which they live. Unfortunately they have not been able to make a living out of the forests. Fortunately for them, for the last couple of years, there have been extra sources of employment. There was the Trans-Canada Highway which went through the area and later on the Trans-Canada Pipe Lines and every year, for these people, there has been the source of income from the blueberries which is substantial--it is not a small thing. But this year an act of God caused a tremendous frost which killed the blueberry crop and these people had no income other than the income they might be able to derive from the forests.

Now unfortunately, I think, too few people have realized the value of our forests. I think these forests of ours are deteriorating. I think it's something that we should give very earnest consideration to. They are deteriorating in two ways, of course. First of all, the most tragic, the most drastic, and that's fire. I think 1958 was the year in which fire struck our forests more seriously than it ever has before, certainly in my recollection. But, we cannot stop fires from starting; they can be started by other than man methods; they can be started accidentally, by lightning and so forth. But we can, I suggest we can control the outbreaks when they do occur.

And the other way in which our forests are deteriorating of course, is by the cutting that is going on which has been well controlled I'd say, but the inadequate re-forestation which has taken place. Now I cannot criticize in any way the actions, the work, the great interest that our Forest Rangers, the people who are the permanent employees of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, in the forest areas. These are a fine group of men.


Unfortunately they are too few in number. They have been most effective, considering their numbers, they have done a fine job; they know their work. And I would like to pay tribute to them, and I would also like to pay tribute to another aspect of our forest situation which I think is a step wonderfully in the right direction. And that is to the Hadashville Nursery Station which has been set up by the provincial government and is being expanded, I understand. I think that is right and it is none too soon. But except for this Station, I think that our forest preservation people have been possibly protecting our forests or attempting to conserve them with a negative, rather than a positive approach. In other words, taking the attitude that if we do not cut too much of the wood, then there will be more wood for more years to come, and I think this is wrong; because we have only been allowing a small amount of cutting to go on to protect our forests, whereas our attitude should be one of allowing a maximum amount of cutting to be going on, supervised cutting, carefully cut, at the same time a maximum amount of reforestation, a maximum amount of fire protection, and a maximum amount of rebuilding the woods.

Now the result of having to cut down, cut back on the amount of cutting that is going on in these woods by the local residents and by outside cutters, has resulted to the local residents in particular, in a desperate, and I mean the word 'deperate' financial condition of the people who live in the area. And this is not an exaggeration, and I think perhaps the honourable minister has been in the area--I have read that he has been, he will agree with me that their condition is desperate at the moment. I am most certain that the Honourable Minister of Health and Public Welfare realizes from the amount of money that is being expended in Public Welfare from this province to that area that the financial condition of these people is desperate.

Now these people have not been allowed to cut what might be termed a logical amount of either Sale or Permit timber in this area due to, mainly in this past year, the danger of fire, and over the long term, the reason is of course, inadequate reforestation; inadequate control of fire. And so the resulting many social welfare cases that are in this area of Manitoba, is a burden to the province, an unproductive burden. These people are fine people; they are willing to work; but they live here and it is hard for them to go away elsewhere and work without assistance. And so they are there at home drawing social welfare from the province of Manitoba, drawing other means of assistance from the taxpayers of Manitoba when they would greatly prefer to be working productively.

Now I would like to offer a plan--it is not original, but it is a plan, and I think that is worth mentioning at this time. It is simple, it is economical, and I hope the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources will consider the advisability of this plan. I am most certain that the Honourable Minister of Labour will be interested in this plan because it provides year-round employment; it provides winter employment. And, as I've said, I'm certain the Honourable Minister of Health and Public Welfare will be interested in this plan because it provides work to the people whom he is now paying welfare.

The long-term object of the plan is simply this. To conserve,


to preserve, to build up the forests for the future of Manitoba. And the short term object, of course, is the simple one of providing work for these people who need it so desperately. I think, Sir, that this is a plan that is of sufficient importance that there should be no delay in starting it or something equally effective. Now the plan, first of all, consists of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources employing a large number of the presently unemployed people in the forest areas south and east of here, and these as I say, are people who at present are a burden to the Province. Take these men and head them up by our own present staff of high-calibre men now in the area, men who are having to work it alone out there. Give them a staff to work for them. And out of this staff of present high-calibre men we have there, and of the new employees, I suggest that you take on "form a corps." A year round corps, and the main function of this corps to be, first of all, to cut roads through the forest, north and south, and I don't mean highways, I mean just roads that you can move on in the right kind of weather. These roads, of course, will serve many purposes. Mainly north and south, of course, because there are no roads in that direction; and mainly north and south, of course, because fires run east and west as a rule with the westerly winds. And so the first function of these roads going north and south would be to build a fire guard, many fire guards through the area. And the second would be to provide access roads for the fire-fighters to get in to where the fire is in short order. The third, of course, would be access roads for the reforestation policy that is going on. Give them an easier method of getting into the woods for reforestation. And of course, the practical use of the roads would include supervised cutting which is a difficult problem at the best of times. All cutting in the woods must be supervised. Roads allowing the Rangers and their men to get in to supervise, of course, would ease the burden tremendously and allow, perhaps, a great deal more cutting to go on, more supervised cutting to go on, because supervised cutting, I might suggest, does far more good to the woods than no cutting at all.

Now, as I say,the first function of these roads would be to provide fire-guards - the first function of this corps would be to build fire-guards and roads into the woods. Their second function would be a stand-by permanent fire-fighting force, and in case of a major fire, they would form the nucleus of a larger force, but they would be trained fire-fighting men, something I think is lacking now.

And the savings, I suggest, I know this is a hypothetical thing, but the savings in a single year such as 1958 alone, the savings in the amount of wood that could have been saved, would have more than paid for the cost of keeping the corps active.

Now the third function of this corps perhaps could be to provide a more complete supervision of the cutting operations that are going on in the woods. As I have suggested a supervised cutting is good for the wooded area. It does not deplete it.

And another function of the corps, of course, would be to assist in every way the reforestation that's going on, because they, no doubt, as they expand will require more men to go into the woods to do their reforestation work.


And then a second part of this plan, of course, first of all - get the corps, secondly, I suggest that by this point, the Hadashville Nursery Station, which I think is being stepped up now to 5 million seedlings a year; is that about the figure Mr. Minister?

HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources): I think it's in excess of that.

MR. ROBERTS: In excess of that. The indication I have gotten from the people at the Station and in other places is that even that is not nearly enough to offset and to build up the forests in the way that they should be built up, and so either expand the Nursery Station or build another one at, at perhaps, another suitable site.

And so this whole plan, as a thought, is simply this. To put our forestry program on a year-round basis so that there is work for the people who live in it so that we can build our forests for the future and so that someday it may be said that we did protect our natural resources.

The plan is very simple, and as I said, of course it's not original, but I suggest the plan is, nonetheless, very needy. I think that it's time that we took action on the forest situation in Manitoba and decided between fire, mis-management and waste and turn to good policy.

I have a "P.S." here, Mr. Speaker; I hope that the employees hired as such will be eligible for unemployment insurance benefits like those who work for the Public Works Department and the reason I have written this P.S. is because our employees at the present time at the Hadashville Nursery Station are not receiving unemployment insurance benefits, and are among the very, very few employees of the province of Manitoba who are not eligible for these benefits. And I think it's something that should not be forgotten too quickly.

While I'm on the subject of the area in question, the area east of here, the area leading down into the forest area, I would like to take a moment to pay tribute to the grand old gentleman of the Department of Agriculture Extension Service, the oldest agricultural representative on the Service, and the man who has done more good for the south-east of Manitoba, I think, without dispute, than any other, Mr. C. S. Prodan. Mr. Prodan has brought new ideas, goodwill from the province of Manitoba from the Department of Agriculture for many, many years out in this area. He has come out on bicycles, he has come out in Model T's, now he is driving a more modern car. But I would just like to mention his latest project, and something that I do think deserves the support of this government; and that is his project too, attempting to establish this area of Manitoba, the area east of here, along the Trans-Canada Highway in either direction as an area in which tobacco can be grown, and of course anyone who has seen what tobacco has done to the formerly waste areas of southern Ontario, will realize what a wonderful thing it would be if this could be found to be a product, an agricultural product which can be grown in this area of Manitoba, which up till now has not been too productive.

And moving on--La Verendrye, I have said, has its forestry problems. It also has the usual farm problems, and it has a few


farm problems of its own, but like the rest of Manitoba the farmers of La Verendrye suffer from the usual, the lack of credit, and I hope, I do hope that that is being taken care of. The lack of stability of income in other words, no insurance on their crop, they are suffering from high cost of operation and they are suffering from the low prices of the products that they sell, low in relative relation to the cost of production. Fortunately, in La Verendrye there are very few straight grain farmers, so the grain marketing problem is not a big problem. There is a great diversification of the livestock and the poultry industry and I say that probably the heaviest concentration of poultry in Manitoba is in the La Verendrye constituency. A good portion of the provincial dairy milk shed is in La Verendrye, and we grow our good beef and swine as well.

There is a great diversification of crops as well as a diversification of the livestock industry. Market gardening along the Seine River and the Red River is a big problem, and the main reason why I would like to see our agricultural credit plan expand itself to include the smaller market gardner who intensely farm their acreage along the shores of the river.

We grow wheat and oats and flax and we have a very high revenue -- special crop, sugar beets that has done wonders for the constituency. We feel that we are the most efficient producers of food in the world, and I think that this can be borne out because the efficiency is tremendous on these farms and yet I think it is worth mentioning that in the past few years only the rare farmer is showing a profit. His high costs seem to be the greatest limiting factor. Low income, of course, and poor marketing facilities. Personally, I think that one of the greatest problems the farmer is up against right now is the lack of, the terrible lack of understanding by business men, by government, by non-farm orgainizations, as to the problems of the farmer, and I don't think that I can over-emphasize the fact that it is to these people's advantage, to the non-farm people, to the business, to labour, to government. It is to their advantage as well as to the farmer's advantage that they help to find the solution or the solutions which will make the farmer himself more prosperous.

There is, of course, selfish reasons why every man whether he is a labourer, a businessman, or what his function in life is, why he should encourage the farmer to be prosperous, make it easier for the farmer to be prosperous. Because, simply this, the farmer is a big buyer when he's prosperous. He is willing to spend his money but when things tighten on him, he has no alternative but to tighten on his purchases. And this affects every town and every community in the province and it affects the businesses, every local business whether it's the garageman or the local storekeeper and it affects them in their business. And manufacturing in the cities and in the centres drops off because the farmer, once again is a big buyer of machines; he is a big buyer of cars; he is a big buyer of clothing; and when things tighten on him he is forced to tighten his purchases. And so, when manufacturing suffers, then the labour problem, of course, becomes involved. There are more layoffs because the manufacturer is not manufacturing as much products. If you want to carry this a little further, where it affects people such as in my constituency and perhaps the


constituency of the honourable member for Rockwood-Iberville. That's the problem that is getting quite sizable around cities such as Winnipeg where, because the farmer himself is not too prosperous on his farm, he is being forced, as soon as his crop is off in the Fall, to find employment in the cities. And most of these men are aggressive men and they're active men and they come in and actually steal work away from men who are holding jobs in the city. Certainly they shouldn't be penalized for trying in their own way of providing for their families, but this, I suggest, is one further reason why non-farm groups should be very interested in seeing the farmer, himself, be more prosperous because a farmer who is making a living on his farm is more than content to do just that.

Canadian consumers, as I suggested, a day or two ago when I was quoting Dr. Young, subsidizes--and this is a loose term, but he subsidizes the manufacturers of Canada to the tune of one billion dollars a year--that is the amount of money, the amount of extra money the consumers of Canada have to pay for their products because of the tariff structure we have in Canada.

But what happens when the farmer asks for that kind of subsidy? Not that he has, he's asked for certain subsidies; what does he get? He gets perhaps a half-hearted contribution from the Prime Minister of Canada of $1.00 per acre to pay his extra losses. I think it is important, as I said, to everyone, to the farmer, to the business, to labour, to the province as a whole. The farmer should be competitive in his business and not be snowed under. I don't think we should ever, by anyone, underestimate the need for a good sound farm policy. One of the major problems affecting the farm right now, and the farmers' revenue, after all that's what's important, is the marketing problem. Both the federal Conservative party and the provincial Conservative party have promised investigations into the marketing of farm products. I think, if I am correct, the provincial party, Conservative party, has promised a farm research council. I think I am correct on that, saying that they will assist the marketing of farm products. And here are just a couple of things that I suggest they could look into as to what is happening to the consumer's dollar before it gets to the farmer. I have here the figures of the beef prices in Manitoba--and these are statistics from Dr. A. W. Wood, the Economics Department of the University of Manitoba. Out of every dollar that the consumer spends for beef, the farmer gets 51.7 cents, for having raised that animal for two or three years, having provided the feed, the work, the stabling, the breeding and the care of that animal, he gets 51.7 cents of the consumer's dollar. Whereas, the retailer, in 1957 got 37.7 cents for his performance in the marketing of the beast. This compares to 1947, a period ten years before that, when the farmer got 67% compared to 51.7 and the retailer got 22 compared to 37.7. This is what's happening to the dollar the farmer was intended to get.

You need only look at the price of bread, as another example. The price of bread in Winnipeg at the present time is probably 17 cents. The cost of the wheat that went into that bread is less than 3¢. The farmer got less than 3¢ for that wheat, on a 17¢ loaf.


In 1929 for instance, when bread was at an average price of 7.7¢ a loaf in Winnipeg, the farmer also got approximately 3¢ for the wheat that went into that bread. I think that these are rather unusual figures. I suggested the other day - remarked on the increase in egg prices which was promised by the federal government, brought in on the Price Stabilization Act, he advised the world that he had raised the price 3¢ per dozen -- Bill 237, Price Stabilization Act, and not a farmer in Manitoba has seen the 3¢ yet; because the 3¢ was lost in the shuffle and the farmer gets less for his eggs now than he did then.

I think another field in which the government of Manitoba should take immediate steps, and I do mean immediate because this thing, I am sure, cannot be left in the balance for any length of time. It has been published in several papers, it has been remarked on by several members of parliament, and it was something that I didn't realize until this time, was happening. The Government of Canada, through its subsidization plan, which it brought in just recently, giving $1.00 per acre to every farmer in Canada, Western Canada up to a maximum of $200.00. We find that only those who happened to take out permit books last year are getting the $200.00, the $1.00 per acre, and all of those farmers who seed their own grain and yet are suffering from exactly the same cost price squeeze, all those farmers, the dairy farmers, the poultry farmers, the beef farmers, who seed their own grain and did not bother to take out a permit book, are not receiving this grant, and I think that the Honourable Minister of Agriculture should make representation to Ottawa on this because this means many hundreds of thousands of dollars to the farmers of Manitoba and on one hand while you can look at it and say it isn't very much, the $200.00 per farm, to the economy of Manitoba, this income into the province is a lot of money and should be given plenty of consideration.

So, Mr. Speaker, in La Verendrye we have our problems, we have our problems on the forests, on the farm and because these people on the farms and in the forests are not prosperous, our businesses are suffering to some extent as well. I would suggest to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources a plan which I think would in some method or manner at least alleviate the serious woods problem. My suggestion was this: that a permanent force be set up for fire fighting, for building fire guards and roads with many purposes, and which would provide a medium employment to the people of this district and conserve, help to conserve and to preserve our forests.

And I suggest to the Department of Agriculture to continue to do everything in its power to increase the prosperity of the farms. This farm credit bill will help. We must look into income stability, price stability, marketing assistance, assisting the farmer to market his products at the best possible prices, and through well aimed representation at Ottawa get a better deal for the farmer from the Federal government.

MR. A. A. TRAPP (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I take this opportunity now to congratulate you on your election to your high office. I fully realize that this is a very difficult task but


I feel confident that you will acquit yourself in the high traditions of that office.

I also want to congratulate the honourable member for Roblin and the honourable member for St. Matthews for the wonderful contribution they made on the opening day of this session. I fully realize that the task that lay before the honourable gentleman, the honourable member from Roblin, was a large task for a new member, and I must say that he did very well.

And the splendid oratory that we received from the honourable member from St. Matthews indicates only once more that while people say, let us have new men, let us have young men in the field of politics and other fields of endeavour, there is nothing that can replace those men with their grey hair, those men that have contributed so much already and still have so very much more to contribute.

Mr. Speaker, I come to this 25th Legislative Assembly as a new member. I come from a new constituency, a constituency that was born just recently out of the findings of the Boundaries Commission. I come from an area that stretches along the Winnipeg River from the boundary of Ontario to Lake Winnipeg, on which side lie vast areas of agricultural land and in which area one will find large areas of mineral wealth below our soil and in which we have large stands of timber. I come from an area that has contributed much up to the present time to the economic growth and development of this province, and I feel can do even more to the future, for the future of this province. People from all parts of the earth came to settle in our constituency, in the constituency that I represent. They have come from England and from France, from Scotland and from Germany, from far away Finland, from Latvia; I think that we have people of more ethnic groups in my constituency than in any other constituency, except possibly in the city of Winnipeg, and there these people have founded an industry in agriculture, in mink ranching. They are the people that have done so much to establish and help to establish the power plants in the eastern section of the province. These people, these pioneers and their descendants, have sent me to this legislature to represent them in this 25th assembly. I am very grateful for that opportunity. I also fully realize the large task that lies ahead of anyone that is to represent that area because there is so much to be done that is for the good of the province as a whole and not only for an individual constituency.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Honourable the Minister of Education for the very fine job he did in the presentation of the bill on Education. Education is a thing that we all talk about and we fully realize that we all must have the equal opportunity to receive that education and I cannot help but think, though, that his task is made considerably easier by the findings of the Royal Commission on Education, but I feel that he has done a very good job and I wish him much success with it because therein lies the future of Manitoba.

In the Speech from the Throne we also heard of the plans of the government to assist in the development of industry throughout the province. That is a very important subject at any time and I


believe that the groundwork was well laid by former ministers of Industry and Commerce when they travelled to various parts of this earth to attract industry to this province. I think that the steps that are being taken now are taken, and based on a sound foundation that was built by previous ministers. Industry, and the diversification of it, industry that's to be spread throughout the province is essential to the economic progress of this province. Because we are basically agriculture, because we are such a small area...that we have in Manitoba, that is, actually settled, and from this small area must come the funds and must come the financial revenue to spread and push the boundaries back, the far frontier back to the north and to the east. It is difficult to imagine this small area to accomplish that, and therefore we must diversify, we must spread our industries throughout the province. In our eastern area we have part of the solution to that. In the large mineral fields that we have lying in the eastern section of the province, we have, one can find, in the Bird River area, claims staked criss-cross from Eastern Lac du Bonnet right through to the Ontario border. We can see mines that are already established, have sunken shafts; we can see establishments that have set up concentrate mills, who have set up $2,500,000 or 2 1/2 million dollars to go ahead with the processing of our minerals so that Manitoba can have the benefit of that revenue. However, it is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that the federal election did to some extent stop the progress that was being made in the mineral fields in the eastern section of the province. I have been told by people who have plans, who are interested in getting going on the minerals that we have there, on the copper, the iron, the nickel, the chromite, and zinc, that we can find in large quantities, and I have been told that when these people have gone out of the province into the areas to the south of us and have asked for assistance, financial assistance, they have been told - "Well, what is this - you people from Manitoba, you are coming for help when your federal authorities don't want us to invest money in Canada." But I don't think that this can stop for long, can stop progress for long, because I know right now there are plans afoot and I have seen the plans, where interested people are willing to spend upward of 2 million dollars in establishing plants that will give employment to people in the Lac du Bonnet area. I have seen the plans, I feel that here is where the Honourable, the Minister of Industry and Commerce and Mines and Natural Resources, can do much to assist in the establishment of these industries. These are men who have held claims in their names since the turn of the century, who have waited a lifetime and have passed away and have not realized the dream of actually operating mines just east of Lac du Bonnet. It is not necessary to travel to Moak Lake or to Thompson or to Snow Lake. We have it within a hundred miles from here. We have vast mineral fields that can be developed.

There is another important place where this provincial government can do an awful lot in the development of a resource that we have and that is the timber resource. The honourable member for La Verendrye has mentioned the need for employment in the eastern


areas of our province. We have, in this province, a species of timber that has not been used to any great extent at all, and I am referring to the species known as poplar and jackpine. Our provincial Department of Mines and Natural Resources offers timber sales and our farmers and our woodsmen go out and purchase these timber sales and then they find that there is no sale for poplar or pine and they put roads into these areas but they cannot take, the only thing they can take out of there is the spruce that will go as pulpwood and lumber and naturally if the pine is large enough it can be used as pulpwood as well but definitely not if they are not large enough it will not go as logs. Therefore, there is no sale for our jackpine species and poplar, and we have vast...and in the years of my experience and since 1934 I have not yet missed one winter in the woods, since 1934, and if this House will be in session this winter it will be the first winter that I will have left out at least a month of my time away from the woods. And I have seen the growth of these species, I have seen them grow and I have seen them fall and I have seen them decay, and a continuous cycle. And here we have a source of revenue and a source of employment for the people of this province to such a great extent that they can almost duplicate what is already being done in the pulpwood industry at Pine Falls.

I would suggest to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources that they do everything they can in their power to promote the establishment of a pulp and paper mill that can utilize these timber resources. I suggest in the Lac du Bonnet area, or an enlargement of the plant at Pine Falls, because there, is almost the center. We can get our timber in from the east, down the Bird River road, down the Pointe du Bois road. We can bring our timber in from the south, down from the Sandilands Forest Reserve, down the #11, and we can bring it in from the north, down the Manigotogan road all the way down. This is a very important thing, this is something that has held fire for a long time, but certainly this is the time when we should utilize the timber resources of our province that the good Lord has given us.

There are, naturally, many other places where the provincial government can act in the interests of the people. Much is being done now to establish small industries in the eastern section of this province. We have an enterprising young man who has established an alfalfa dehydrating plant. There probably is room for more in the province. I do not know. I haven't investigated. In that area that I represent there are acres and acres and hundreds of acres of land that is not quite suitable for agricultural purposes other than cattle or dairy, but the dairy people in this province find themselves in the position that if they don't have a milk contract that is the end. It does not pay them to go into it. A skim milk dehydrating plant in that area would be a wonderful thing and it could do an awful lot to help those people who have the type of land that they can't farm in any other way but by dairying. It would do an awful lot for those areas.

Now, much has also been said of the potential of eastern Manitoba in the way of the tourist industry. There certainly is a potential. In this vast area lying to the east of us is a vacation


land that we people and so many that don't even know of, it lies there, the thousands of little lakes glittering in the sun on a beautiful day are an invitation that almost no one can refuse. Yes, and there are big fish there too. A beautiful country. And it only requires the development. Mr. Speaker, the Whiteshell Forest Reserve and the Whiteshell area is not very old. I remember the beginning of that tourist area, because I was one of the men that had the first contract to clear the right of way into that Whiteshell area. That is only approximately ten years ago. In those ten years we have seen somewhere around 5000 cottages being built in there, a highway put into that area, and numerous side roads being put in to little lakes. The people who are engaged in the tourist industry there; they are the pioneers of the tourist industry in eastern Manitoba. They are the ones that were there from the beginning. They are the ones, they were so eager to get started, they couldn't wait until the roads were finished, or completed. They went in there by boat and they dragged themselves in there by tractors to get started on it, and, Mr. Speaker, I say that today we have at least the start. They are there and all we need now is to give them the facilities to go on with the very good job that they are doing now. To give them the kind of facilities that will attract our southern neighbors, or any people that want to visit that area, and those facilities being power in the tourist places. What kind of a vacation is it for a child from Winnipeg if they can't go into that area and even have an ice cream, and that is not possible now because there is no power. Wouldn't it be nice that if every tourist place had a telephone, and if their accommodations were filled up that they could phone on to the next place and say "would you please take these people, I have no room." And then our southern neighbors or our touring public would certainly appreciate that kind of hospitality. That cannot be done at the moment and I say that that is something that should be done, because when we talk of the potential of the tourist industry, we are thinking always in terms of our southern neighbors, and we are not thinking wrongly because they are the people who want to come here. In the years of my travels in that country, in the miles and miles I have travelled by canoe and by boat, from one little lake and portaging into another one, it has happened dozens of times; when you come to a little lake that you think well here maybe no one has been, and then you come to a beach and you think well I'll pull up here and just rest a little, and the first thing you know you find a can, maybe or food, and of beer as well, with the U.S.A. mark on it and some fellow from some place in the United States has been in one of our little lakes up in the Whiteshell, which would indicate, Mr. Speaker, that there is a tremendous interest in our eastern area, in our vacationland. Therefore, I think, Mr. Speaker, that it would definitely be in the interests of the people in the Whiteshell, in the Bird River area, and along Lake Winnipeg all the way up to Victoria Beach; these are all places that are beautiful and attractive; if the roads that are in there were black-topped so that they would give the people the kind of an entrance that would attract the touring public to those places.

I would also like to say, while I am on the subject, that


much has been said of the Mississippi Parkway and I had the honour and the privilege to be a representative on that board for a little while, I might say that therein lies a great potential. But speaking on behalf of those people who are engaged in the tourist industry and who have established themselves and who are the pioneers in that industry, I would urge the government to give every consideration first: If there is a road to be constructed north of Falcon Lake, for heaven's sake do not take it away from the people who are already in the industry. They have had their hard times, give them a little bit of better times if there are any better times available. I think that is very important.

Now, I am also very interested in the statement that we are expecting from the Honourable the Minister of Public Works. In my time of office that I have held in various fields, municipal fields and in the eastern Manitoba Development Board, in which we were concerned with highways, we have always fully realized that highways are very essential to progress in this province, and therefore, I am of course, very interested in what the Honourable Minister of Public Works will say in regard to highways. We have over the years, by attracting so much traffic to our eastern section, that we have developed problems, problems of congestion on our highways, and I would urge the government to give consideration to the 59 highway that is being constructed now, section by section, to give consideration to the early completion of that highway, connecting up with Pine Falls, so as to bring that traffic directly into Winnipeg, without sending it up to the #4 and only to merge with the other traffic coming in from the east and thereby causing that type of congestion. I think it is very important.

I also think that construction of the #11 highway, bringing it all the way from the United States boundary right through all the way up to Pine Falls, is very important. I think this is something that the people of Eastern Manitoba, of Southeastern Manitoba, are vitally interested in and have been waiting for for some time and I think that now is the time to give it to them, because with the unemployment situation as it is, here is the time when we can go out and clear right of ways and so forth and give to those people a road, north and south, which will bring pulpwood to Pine Falls and also serve to bring in the tourist trade from the south.

The honourable member for La Verendrye also said something about, or he said a great deal about the problems of agriculture. The problems of agriculture naturally are widely discussed and I am certainly of the opinion that agriculture has been more or less the stepchild in the other industries that make up our economic set-up in Canada. I do not think that we have been give a fair share of the national income. It could be that maybe we have quarrelled too much among ourselves as to what is right. And possibly this government today will find it very difficult to ascertain just what is a fair share of income. When is a farmer making money? What is an economic unit? That is the big question, and even when one can produce evidence that the farmer is not making money, there is always the talk and always the saying, that 'Oh yes, if he was efficient though, he could have made money.'


There are many ways of finding out just what the farmer is actually making, and I think that the government should make a determined effort to actually find out if there is any money and what is an economic unit. I think that is essential. I had other ideas, I had some ideas as to how that could be done. It could be done through our agricultural representatives that are located in all sections of our province. I think it is very important that they consider this matter and it would be done through the management clubs that they are establishing now, and have established over the past years. I think that is one way of finding out actually if they are making any money, if the agricultural representatives, through the management clubs that they are setting up, if they would get their heads together and in each area keep a proper set of records with the kind of advice and guidance that is available from the agricultural representative, then I think that we could expect at least a fair idea as to whether people are making any money on the farms or not, and why not, if they aren't.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have spoken at quite some length. I didn't watch the time when I started and there are a few other matters that I would like to deal with yet. There is one very important matter that I would like to urge the government to give some attention to. It is no secret, I am sure, I was one of those that was chosen to act on the Liquor Licensing Board of this province at the inception of the new Liquor Control Act. During that time I had the opportunity to witness the operation of that Act right from the very beginning. I think that all would agree with me that much can be said for the way this Act has been brought into operation without too much argument either way. I think much can be said for the Chairman and the members of the Government Liquor Control Commission, and I think that much can be said for the Licensing Board, and also for the staff of inspectors that have helped and that have done such a wonderful job in a very difficult undertaking. The introduction of mixed drinking into our cocktail bars and our beverage rooms and into our eating establishments certainly have been successful, and one has only to go to some of our new licensed premises along Main Street or Portage Avenue and find the great number of people who are patronizing these places, to realize that this has been met with wholehearted reception by the majority of the public. However, there are some thoughts that should be given now. This new liquor act has been in operation for a period of two years, and while it is not good for any Act to be enacted and to be put down in the statutes and then forgotten, that is how this is not right either. Certainly every Act has some changes to be made, and possibly today, two years since this Act was brought into effect, this should be sufficient time for trial. And today, I think, our government should take a look at it. And I say now, because I would not raise this question now, I do not know what the intention of the government is in that respect, but if I do not raise the issue now then possibly I would have to raise it at the next session and then people who are licensed operators and those applicants who are interested would likely have to wait another year before this matter could be brought up, and therefore, I would urge the


government to look into some of these measures now so that they likely could be brought up at the next session. I feel that while the laws were written, and while the act was written, and while the intent was for the best, now that experience has shown that possibly some of the laws and some of the rules that were laid down, and while they do apply possibly in the city, they do not apply in the country. There is some question that has to be given as to the uniformity of time for all license applicants. As it is now, there are some licensees with a different type of license that can stay open longer than others. There is no onus to say that the man with a cocktail bar should stay open longer than the man with the beverage room except that is how the act is written. I will not give my own opinion on these matters but I think that theses are matters that are very important to our people in the industry. Much has been said about the 11 o'clock closing hour time for the hotels. Much has been said, and maybe there is much to be said for it. I think this is a matter that should be looked into. It could well be that possibly the government should look into whether hotels should be asked to have a restaurant, beer and wine license first before they can qualify for a beverage room license. That is quite a question, and while possibly it maybe does apply in the city, it could be that it does not apply in the country. These are the kind of questions that are facing the people who are in that industry, and I happen to know that the people in the hotel industry, because I've had a good look at it. They are not making any money. Not the country points, and I think that this is high time, and I know they are waiting for it, that some consideration should be given and at least the act should be looked at.

Now, there is one other matter that I would like to just raise, and that deals with municipalities and assessment. Until recently we had provincial assessors or municipal assessors looking after the assessment work of this province. Now we have municipal assessors doing the work right across the province. This is a very touchy subject; I know that assessment is. But when the municipalities had their own assessors, they did not observe the Municipal Act to the letter of the law, and when a man who owns 40 acres or owns 39 acres, and he owns another 160 acres a mile or so away, and while the assessor knew that under the Act he should not qualify as a farmer, however he still was classed as a farmer. Today, though, with the municipal assessors in the field, that is no longer the case. They have to assess according to the law. And farmers find themselves in the position where they have possibly 35 acres where they live and where they have their equipment, and then a mile away have the main bulk of their farm land and they are classed not as farmers and, therefore, the taxes on that little portion of land that they have, where they live on, goes up. Now that is not one can say that they aren't farmers, and I feel that the gentleman or the Honourable Minister who is in charge of that Department should take a look at the definition of the word "farmer" in that respect.

There also...there is another instance arises where a man has 40 acres, and then the Provincial Government or the municipality come along and they want to either construct a drain or construct


a highway. And, if the man doesn't want to sign, they have a right to expropriate and they take away an acre or two from the man and which they can do, and which they do because it is necessary for the good of the community. And then the man, because he hasn't got forty acres anymore, his taxes go up and up and up.

Now these are things that are not quite fair to the people in the municipalities. And, I feel that another look should be given to these problems. While the Government is new and I know that their intentions are for the best, I'm raising these points, if nobody else does, they would not likely be aware of them.

Now, there isn't much more that I would like to say at this moment except this, Mr. Speaker, that I come as a new Member, I come possibly with some new suggestions. There is nothing wrong with that, I don't think, when one has worked in the interests of the people for many years and, today, has the opportunity to come before the Legislative Assembly of this Province and lay the suggestions before the Government, and if the Government so feels that it would be in the interests, I'm sure the people in our Province would be glad to see action taken on it.

MR. F. GROVES (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I first of all would like to congratulate you on your election to your high office. You are highly respected I'm sure by all the Members of this House. And, in addition to being highly respect, you are also highly regarded by particularly the younger members of our group. You will, I am sure, occupy your chair for many years to come. I would like also to congratulate the Honourable Member from Roblin for the excellent manner in which he replied to the Speech from the Throne. His presentation, I am sure, belies the modesty which he used in the reply itself. And also, my congratulations to the Honourable Member from St. Matthews, who in his ususal effective and sincere manner did a very excellent job of seconding. Congratulations also to our new Premier and our new Government. These are a fine body of men doing a fine job for our Province.

This is my first time, Mr. Speaker, as a Member of this House, and during the debate my thoughts have wandered to, of all things, the subject of the lowly handkerchief. The size of the ordinary pocket handkerchief is 19 inches by 19 inches. Surely we should have a larger size. At least double to absorb the many tears that have been shed this session.

MR. EVANS: Crying towels.

MR. GROVES: Crying towels. That's correct. Yes, Mr. Speaker, this has surely been a crying session. I would particularly recommend this double sized handkerchief to my honourable friends in the Official Opposition. They have surely given us an unholy chorus of wails. The Member, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, he has been crying because his Party lost the election, and I emphasize; his Party lost the election. He didn't lose the election, he, in my opinion, is much too modest.

The Honourable Member from Carillon, he has been crying because the C.C.F. Opposition will not oppose. Honourable former


Cabinet Ministers have been crying because the Government is doing what they say they were going to do anyway. The Honourable Member from Ste. Rose has been crying because interest rates are too high; and the Honourable Member from Springfield, he was crying because he was afraid that if he had a sore back, he couldn't pass the Medical Board that is being set up in the new Farm Credit Plan. And finally, and best of all I think, the Honourable Member from La Verendrye, and I stand corrected on this, Mr. Speaker, because I didn't consult Hansard. It seemed to me that he was crying because the hens in his constituency weren't laying large enough eggs. The Government, of course, is to blame for all of these things. I don't recommend either, Mr. Speaker, that for this session anyway, this large size handkerchief for our honourable friends in the C.C.F. group, for surprisingly enough they haven't done very much crying this session. They are a very happy bunch. They are our buddies this trip. I would suggest though that the Honourable Member from Radisson and the Honourable Member from Assiniboia get together on their reasons for this policy of support by the C.C.F. Party. The Honourable Member from Assiniboia and we quote from Hansard, it says: "We find that a minority Government is susceptible to squeeze" and Mr. Roblin replies: "Just try it and see". The Honourable Member replied: "We already have tried it. We've tried it. We've put it into effect and it worked". Government by squeeze play is his game. The Honourable Member from Radisson on the other hand, although I haven't seen the Hansard yet, he gave us a very sincere lecture and he told us that he would keep us in office for the full legal length of the term. His job, he says, is to see that the Government governs.

These are two entirely different motives or points of view, I would say, and something that perhaps in future sessions the C.C.F., if they are going to continue this acquiesence to Government measures, they should get together on their reasons for saying. However, enough of that.

I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, that I am very proud of my constituency, but I will spare the Members a long eulogy. It is enough to say that St. Vital is one of the oldest and most historic constituencies or municipalities in our Province, with a history dating back to the first French explorations of the west. It is primarily a residential district with very little commercial or industrial developments. There are, in the southern portions of this municipality, fairly large tracts of land suitable for industrial development which will, with the co-operation of the Municipal Council, interest its citizens, and with Government aid provided probably through the new industrial development fund, lead our municipality to a better well-balanced economy. The re-distribution commission sought this to draw a line through the middle of our municipality and to give to the constituency represented here by the Honourable Member from Radisson, the southern extremity. This proposed industrial development will take place in his portion of St. Vital although my constituents will reap the benefit on their tax bills. We will be satisfied and very happy with this.


St. Vital has many problems which I hope with the help of, and I quote: "This active, alert, vigorous, dynamic, atomic age, jet age, youthful Government" which can be solved, which I hope can be solved, in the not too distant future. One of these problems, Mr. Speaker, is the Trans-Canada Highway. The previous administration of this Province sought this, to have the Trans-Canada Highway enter the Greater Winnipeg through St. Vital. We have no complaints about that, in fact, there are many benefits to having this highway enter Greater Winnipeg through our municipality. It has brought, however, many problems. This highway leads to and returns from a very popular summer resort area, and the large volume of traffic which now uses it causes damage to residential streets and creates a traffic problem, or a traffic control problem that is now admittedly beyond the control of local authority. This is a live issue in our constituency and one which we feel will have to be looked at soon, both from the Municipal and Provincial Government level.

In the matter of libraries, our municipality established six years ago a very excellent library of which I was honoured to be its first Chairman. The library got along for many of these years on a grant of only $400.00 per annum from the Provincial Government. This grant, I believe, has now been increased to $2,000.00, but many of us, who are interested in libraries, fail to or cannot understand the reason behind the present regulation that gives large grants to regional libraries, smaller grants to municipal libraries in consideration of the population served.

We need a new bridge in St. Vital. The Wilbur Smith Traffic Survey of Greater Winnipeg says we are going to get two. On page 237 of that report it lists the recommended development of proposed bridges in the Greater Winnipeg area and the two bridges: one, St. Vital-Fort Garry bridge on the Red River between Fermor Avenue and Oakenwald Avenue in Fort Garry; and the second bridge at the foot of Osborne Street over the Red River at the south end of Osborne Street which would lead on to Edinburgh Avenue in St. Vital. This traffic survey, if we leave out the Disraeli bridge which now is in process, gives these two bridges which will serve our municipality second and fourth preference. We sincerely hope that our new Government will look into the matter of bridges for St. Vital.

Flood control - people of our constituency are anxiously awaiting the report of the cost benefit study commission. As you are all aware, in the flood of 1950 our municipality was completely inundated and we are now told that the dikes which were built following the flood of 1950 would no longer hold back a flood of that magnitude.

Coloured margarine - yes, here is another lively issue in St. Vital and, although the former Honourable Member from Fort Garry is no longer with us, I can assure you this House has not heard the end of coloured margarine. This project, apart from colour, margarine that is, are expensive I admit, and perhaps when the Government has looked after the estimated two and a half million dollars worth of work which is envisioned in the resolution that was presented yesterday by the Honourable Member from


Fisher, and has dealt with the long list of "why didn't you do it when", items requested last evening by the Honourable Member from Emerson, after they have done these, surely they could have a peek at ours.

Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I could close with just a few words about the future of the Province of Manitoba as I see it. I see it quite differently than my honourable friends from the C.C.F. They certainly aren't optimists are they? The people of Canada showed in the last Federal election that they were not pessimistic about the future of our country, nor about the matter or by whom they would like to see that future developed. Let us look around this Province of ours and see what there is in the way of potential work. Water conservation projects, sewer and water installations in towns and villages, in fact local improvements of all kinds in our municipalities apart from contemplated expansion in industry present a picture of development in this Province that staggers the imagination. With forward looking leadership, monies will be found to finance these projects. Jobs will be assured for all of those who want to work. The standard of living of our people will be increased. Wages will increase, and I have no quarrel with our friend from the C.C.F. on this score, for wages must increase. Farm income must increase. Purchasing power will, as a result, increase and the people of this province, labour, farmer, industry and Government can by joint effort, co-operation and understanding of their mutual problems, advance together into that richer, fuller life that surely was meant for us when providence endowed us with the resources we now find at our disposal.

MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, may I extend to you my sincere congratulations as being elected the first commoner. May I extend to the mover and the seconder in the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, my sincere congratulations on jobs well done. To the new Members of this House I also extend a welcome and feel that the stature of this House has been greatly enhanced by the new Members which have come into this House from all sides. I believe too, that congratulations are in order to the C.C.F. for some of the Members whom they have acquired from rural parts of this Province, and I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that it is a pleasure to hear an agricultural critic of the C.C.F. speak with an agricultural background and not with a background which has been solely obtained from the fact that he possessed under his bedroom window a flower box full of petunias.

Now I was pleased to hear that the Honourable Minister for Public Works has announced as a Government policy, a policy which he and I; he, while in the Opposition and I, while on the Government side; both held in common. Namely, the policy of road planning. He advocated that in this House, I, also, advocated it in this House. I'm glad that it has been adopted by the Government as one of its fixed policies.

I am also glad to hear from the Honourable Minister that roads in Manitoba are going to be constructed, are going to be repaired and are going to be maintained on the basis of needs,


and needs only. Because that policy assures me that my constituency will receive from this Government the roads that it needs. Roads which are needed on account of the traffic and I am sure that the Honourable Member from Gimli, whose constituency is north of mine, will join with me in urging this Government to include in its first year program, a four-line highway from the Town of Selkirk, north to Gimli. That highway is needed.

MR. WILLIS: Could you wait until tonight?

MR. HILLHOUSE: No, I want to get my plug in first.... And I would also ask the Government to do that two and a half miles from the point just north of lower Fort Garry to the Town of Selkirk, to increase the width of that highway to four lanes...

MR. WILLIS: You're interferring with your own road.

MR. HILLHOUSE: The Town of Selkirk has already started to construct four lanes, yes, and in some places eight lanes down Main Street and I fear that there may be a bottle neck at the south end of the town by the traffic, the traffic coming from the north, coming from four lanes into two lanes. So, Mr. Minister, in the interests of safety, please give us those four lanes.

Now, there is another matter which I would like to bring up and that is the question of east and west provincial trunk highways in the Inter-Lake area. I raised that question last year. I raise it again this year because I feel that in view of the fact that we are in session passing an Industrial Development Fund Bill, that the Government is taking active steps to decentralize industry by making available in rural Manitoba the necessary funds for that purpose, I feel that we should have in the Inter-Lake district of this Province, an east and west provincial trunk highway. I believe that there may be one there now. I think it is highway 68 from Arborg over to Poplarfield. But, the only way that we can build up strong communities and there are a number of communities there that have potential strength, the only way that we can build up these communities, is by giving them a means of access, not only from north to south, but from east to west. And, I urge the Government to include in their road-building program, east and west provincial trunk highways in the Inter-Lake district.

Now, there is another matter in connection with roads, Mr. Speaker, and that deals with what is commonly known as the "old river road" in the Parish of St. Andrews on the west side of the Red River. That road at present is under municipal jurisdiction and the amount of capital expenditure that will be necessary to put that road into shape is beyond the financial competence of the Municipality of St. Andrews. Now, the reason why I say that, Mr. Speaker, is this, that during the past number of years that roadway has suffered greatly from river bank erosion. The Federal Government a number of years ago recognized its responsibility for that erosion due to the fact that that erosion, in my opinion, was caused by the St. Andrews Locks. But for about two


years before the defeat of the St. Laurent government, the Federal Government reneged on a responsibility which it had previously assumed. And since the Conservative Government has come into office at Ottawa, the Conservative Government has continued the policy which had been started by the previous Liberal administration. We have had numerous meetings in the past with representatives of our Department of Public Works here and the district engineer of the Federal Department of Public Works to try and get the federal government to assume its rightful and just responsibility in respect to that erosion but I regret to say, Mr. Speaker, that our efforts have been in vain.

Now as I say, the maintenance of that road is beyond municipal responsibility and, I think, and it is creating a new classification, I think that that road should be taken over by the Province of Manitoba as a tourist road because I believe that that road passes through a part of Manitoba which is steeped in historical significance, and it would provide to the citizens of the Greater Winnipeg area, a nice Sunday afternoon run and would bring revenue to the Province of Manitoba.

I would also suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we spend more money in providing camp sites for afternoon picnickers...

MR. ROBLIN: We're going to do it.

MR. HILLHOUSE: Now recently in British Columbia I noticed that they had some wonderful campsites there. The site was cut out in the woods, there was a fire provided for the campers, there was cut wood provided for them, there was a water supply easily accessible to all the little campsites and no charge was made for that service. And, on the Island, Vancouver Island, I noticed in one campsite that I visited that ninety percent of the cars there were from the United States - California, the state of Washington and some even down as far as Texas.

Now I feel satisfied that if we provide that same service here that we will encourage a lot of tourists, but, I do make this suggestion that we not only try to encourage tourists but we should also try to encourage our residents in the larger areas to move out into the country for a weekend and take advantage of these little sites. Now down that old St. Andrews river road in St. Andrews, there are some beautiful locations there that the government should start looking at and setting aside for that purpose.

Now there is another matter too that I, concerning which I would like to speak. I think something should be done to try and preserve some of our old historical sites in this province and if the honourable Member for Seven Oaks will pardon my intrusion into his constituency, in which constituency I reside and the Honourable Member is my Member, I would like to call to the attention of the House the work done by the municipality of West Kildonan in rehabilitating and maintaining the Old Seven Oaks House. They've done a tremendous job there. Now there are other places in Manitoba that require the same attention and I mentioned this one not by way of exclusion of all others but simply by way of example. I mention the old St. Peters Church north of the Town of Selkirk.


There is one of the most historical old buildings in the Province of Manitoba. At one time it was in a fairly comfortable, well-to-do parish. Today it is not. And yet, that old building should be preserved. The Kiwanis Club in Selkirk and the Kinsmen Club have had 'working bees' going down there during the summer months to try and clean up the old church yard and to try and preserve some of the old headstones and monuments. But I do believe, Mr. Speaker, that that old church should get some help from the Province of Manitoba and I would ask the Minister in charge of that particular Department to look into it. I have mentioned St. Peters just as an example and I'm sure that there must be other places in this province that are as deserving of attention as this old church of St. Peters.

MR. ROBLIN: Here, here!

MR. HILLHOUSE: Now, Mr. Speaker, there is one matter which I would like to mention and that is the Civil Service of the Province. I believe that Manitoba has one of the finest Civil Services in Canada. I believe, too, that with the exception of the province of Nova Scotia, Manitoba employs fewer Civil Servants per capita population than any other province in this Dominion. Which, to my mind at least, would indicate that our Civil Service is efficient.

Now, I was amazed on reading the Civil Service Act that there is no statutory provision in that act giving to a civil servant the right of an appeal from a dismissal; nor is there a statutory provision giving that servant the right of appeal against the classification although you have, I believe, an order in council which gives them the machinery to appeal. Nor is there any right against a demotion or dismissal.

Now, I suggest that since the Government intends to look into the legislation in our statute books that they should look into the Civil Service Act with a view to incorporating therein a provision similar to that found in the Federal Civil Service Act, but, with this exception. My understanding of the Federal Civil Service Act is that the machinery of appeal is too cumbersome, the delays are too great and I think that we could get a formula in Manitoba which would be more speedy and more summary and much more effective.

Now before I leave the Department of Public Works and while on the subject of Civil Servants, I make this suggestion to the Honourable Minister of Public Works and that is this--that in his department he has a number of casual, seasonal employees. Some of them work eight, nine months a year, and I would suggest to the honourable minister that these men be brought under the Civil Service. They are now eligible for Civil Service superannuation benefits by reason of an amendment which we put through this House a couple of years ago; but I suggest, last year as a matter of fact, but I suggest that these men should be brought under the Civil Service Commission, and not under the Department of Public Works. I make that suggestion so that these men will feel that they're going to have greater security in their position, and also for the purpose of bringing about an equalization in the wages


that these men receive. Because it amazed me, Mr. Speaker, to find out that in this province, we're employing men on our highways and paying them as little as 98 cents an hour. And these wages vary from 98 cents upwards, and yet the men are all doing the same type of work. Now, I believe if they were brought under the Civil Service Commission, that there would be a classification for the job with a salary applied to that classification.

Now, I'm covering quite a bit of territory. Getting down to the mental hospital at Selkirk, which would also include the mental hospital at Brandon. During the last session of this legislature not at this parliament, I urged that the employees at that institution, at all mental institutions, be put on a 40 hour week. I understand that an announcement was made in the newspapers to the effect that starting December 1st, the 40 hour week will be inaugurated in these institutions. And I wish to thank the minister in charge of that department and the government, for the speedy action which they took in that matter and to assure them that their action is greatly appreciated by the employees at the Selkirk Mental Hospital.

Now, I also urged two years, last year rather, that the government of the day should look into the feasibility and practicability of appointing to both of our large mental institutions, an administrator, rather than the present system of a medical superintendent in charge of each of these institutions. Now, at the time of making that suggestion, and now, I wish to assure the House that I am not in any way reflecting upon the present medical superintendent at the Selkirk Mental Hospital, nor on the present medical superintendent at the Brandon Mental Hospital, as both of these gentlemen are doing an exceedingly fine job. The only reason why I mention that these administrators should be appointed, is to relieve the medical superintendents of these institutions of administrative work which could be done by someone else, thus allowing them more time to develop, to apply on matters that come within their professional knowledge. Because I think the Honourable Minister of Health will agree with me that there is a shortage of trained psychiatrists in this province and that shortage is going to become more pronounced as the years go on. And that, it seems a shame that a man who is a trained psychiatrist should have to devote any time at all to administrative duties when these duties could be best employed in his particular field.

I also made another suggestion last year and that was this; that we, in our Civil Service Superannuation Act, adopt the principle which was adopted by Great Britain in respect of employees in mental institutions. And that was this; that after 20 years' service, each one year of service would count as two towards superannuation. Now, Great Britain, in adopting that system, recognized the terrific strain that was placed upon anyone working in a custodial capacity in an institution of that nature. And I wish to assure each and every member of this House that there is a terrific strain on these people and that some recognition should be given them for the patriotic service that they are rendering our community in being employed in such institutions. The work in the mental institution as far as a


guard or an attendent is concerned, is much more dangerous than a custodial employee in a penal institution. As a matter of fact, I think the records will show, that it's ten times more dangerous.

Now, I don't know whether there is going to be another session of this House, but if there is not going to be another session - if there is going to be another session, I'll put it that way first, I hope the government, in revealing the statutes of Manitoba, with particular reference to regulations, that they will also consider the various statutes of Manitoba insofar as the onus of proof sections, and that they will remove from every statute of Manitoba, the onus of proof on an accused person, except in such matters as are peculiarly within his own knowledge. I also hope, too, that if the government, that the government will introduce at the next session of this legislature, the Uniform Conditional Sales Act and give to purchasers, of various chattels, under conditional sales, an even break. Now, I have spoken longer than I intended, Mr. Speaker, but I wish to thank you for your attention.


MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Speaker, the government of the day has introduced a bill to ease the unemployment situation in Manitoba and I wish to commend them for this and I hope they're successful in their efforts. And at this time, I would like to bring to their attention, some projects, which I think would fall into this program and assist the people in St. George and at the same time, accomplish some very worth-while projects.

One of the projects is a bridge across the lower Fairford. I'm sorry the minister isn't in his seat at the moment. The other day -- This bridge would be of great value to those farmers who reside west of Gypsumville and on the other side of the Fairford River. As it is now, they have to travel many miles around to get to the nearest elevator, which is located near Moosehorn, or I should I say in Moosehorn. This bridge is also of great value to the Indians living on the Fairford Reserve. At the present time, if these Indians require medical assistance and want to go to the nearest nursing home, they must travel some 70 miles, round trip. If these people had a bridge across the Fairford, the distance would be only 5 miles.

The other day, I directed a question to the Minister of Public Works and I asked him what plans the government had in regarding the sharing of the cost of this bridge. We had previously met with the minister, that is a member of the Department of Indian Affairs, and myself, and we discussed this with the minister some time ago. The minister replied that he was interested and would like to hear more about the project from his engineers. However, when I directed the question to the minister before the Orders of the Day, the other, last week, he said, "we are still waiting word from the Department of Indian Affairs to see what the Federal Government is going to do in this matter." I'd like to say as the minister forgot what the conversation was, because the minister, at that time, advised the official from the Department of Indian Affairs that he would look into the matter and then contact the department, so they, in turn could notify the Federal Government, as to what the plans were from the Provincial Government. I was in touch with the department very recently, and they said we are still waiting to hear from Mr. Willis, so we can, in turn, call the federal authorities and let him know if the provinicial department, government, is prepared to share the cost of this bridge. This bridge would not only serve the farmers and the Indians, but it's a vital need to the doctor who has to make frequent trips to this area, and if this bridge was there, it would cut down his mileage tremendously.

The minister, at that time, also suggested that this, if such a project could be considered by his government, it would be an excellent winter project and it might be easier to construct in the winter time at a reduced cost. I'm not quarrelling with the minister. I'm quite sure that he has forgotten exactly what the conversation was. At the present time he is in charge of two of the biggest departments in the government, and I honestly believe that no man, no matter how good he is, can do this job properly, if he hasn't got the proper time to do it in. At the present time, the minister has about half a day to agriculture, and half a day to public works, and any man would need a full


time for both of these departments.

It reminds me of the last session, when the member from Morris, who was then independent, and now isn't so independent, brought in a resolution, urging the previous government, to put in a full time Minister of Agriculture. However, the honourable member for Morris doesn't see fit to make the, or ask the things he used to do as an Independent. He has accused some of our members of apple-polishing. I don't think any member of the House is polishing apples more than the honourable member. Only he's polishing a green apple and he might find that even a little bite might prove just a little sour.

MR. SPEAKER: Order! I would think that the honourable member shouldn't indulge in personalities.

MR. GUTTORMSON: Another project, which is very, which could be aptly considered a winter project, is the clearing of a road running east of Gypsumville. This road runs to the two reserves and to quite a large farming area. At the present time, the road is quite narrow and the brush has grown up extensively on both sides and is a tremendous traffic hazard. And I reluctantly predict that unless this road is cleared, we're going to have traffic fatalities on that stretch of road.

I would like to urge the Minister of Public Utilities to consider the possibility of changing the present policy in the Manitoba Telephone System of extending the telephone service or extending the policy which is now in effect. The present policy permits the telphone system to construct one mile of telephone lines on the road allowance for each subscriber. Up in my area, particularly the new part, which is sparcely settled in many places, the residents are unable to take advantage of this service because many of them live beyond the one-mile limit. This is a project which could also be undertaken this winter and it would give employment to a great number of persons and it would also be greatly appreciated by all those who would benefit from this service. There are a number of persons who are isolated and if they require medical assistance or any other type of emergency aid, they just wouldn't be able to contact the town's people.

I would also like to suggest that the present government continue a program, which was started by the previous government, and that is of supplying seed for those farmers who were flooded out. Particularly, I am speaking of those people along Lake Manitoba, whose land was under water for many years, and now is free of the water, but the land is so sour that nothing will grow on it unless something is done to encourage growth. This summer, I believe, there were members of the Department of Agriculture conducting experiments to see what type of seed would grow best in this type of soil and if these tests prove satisfactory, I would urge the government to help these farmers with the seed, so that they can re-claim the land which has been lost to them for so many years.

It isn't my intention to speak on the Lake, the report on the Lake Manitoba and Winnipeg Board at this time. There is a


resolution standing on the paper today, and I would like to speak on it at that time. I have spoken regarding one of the most pressing problems in the fishing industry. However, before I conclude, I would like to refer to the amendment that was made and by a member on this side of the House, with regard to the interest rates. I'm not going to go into the arguments of who was right or who was wrong in this matter. But rather the merit and the meaning of the amendment itself. Those members who were present in the last session of the legislature, will remember...

MR. ROBLIN: Isn't this out of order? We settled this matter.

MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, the other day, the honourable member, I believe from The Pas, spoke on interest rates and after the amendment was dealt with, I am not speaking on the interest rate itself, I'm speaking about amendments, and I think, speaking on the Throne Speech, I have far more leeway than the minister did when he was speaking on a particular bill.

MR. SPEAKER: You may not discuss the same question twice until after a decision has been arrived at.

MR. GUTTORMSON: I'm not discussing the same question.

MR. SPEAKER: Alright. Go ahead.

MR. GUTTORMSON: When the amendment came up, this side of the House was accused of trying to "kill the bill". I would like to go back to the last session of the legislature when a member of the opposition moved an amendment which read, "this is in connection with Bill No. 34, that Bill No. 34 be now not read a second time, but that it be resolved, and in the opinion of this House, the government should give consideration to the advisability of taking action to impose a time limit on horse racing in the Greater Winnipeg area." The honourable member for Iberville, if my memory serves me correctly, objected strenuously, or I should say, he accused the supporters of this amendment, that they were trying to kill that particular bill. The Honourable the first Minister, and members of the C.C.F. and others, vehemently denied that there was any such intention. They said, we just want to amend it. We're not trying to "kill the bill". I think I can aptly sum up the arguments regarding the amendments of the government side of the C.C.F. in connection with the matter by quoting the words that Shakespeare's MacBeth, who said "it's a tale full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Speaker, just one word with respect to two important matters that effect my part of the country. One is a plea to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources on behalf of the people living in the bush country in the south-east. I wholly agree with the honourable member for La Verendrye. They went through a very bad summer, this past summer, because of the lack of fruit -- no blueberries. Also,


they were not allowed to cut as much as usual, because of the dry season. These people are in distress. They do not want relief. They want work, and I hope that the Minister will be able to do something for them.

Another one is a request to the government to build up, if possible, the missing link on highway 23. I think this has been before the government. I have before me, a resolution, that has been passed by some 15 municipalities. It has been passed by the Eastern Manitoba Development Board, of which I happen to be vice-president, an honorary vice-president, and I'll just read a few of the "whereases". I'll be very short. "Whereas Manitoba No. 23 highway is part of a new Trans-Continental Highway, almost complete from Toronto to Vancouver, and whereas only three short gaps remain in this new trans-continental route; in Ontario some 90 miles from Atikokan to Fort Frances which is under construction; in Manitoba some 13 miles from La Richelle straight east to P.T.H. No. 12". And this is the 13 miles that I would plead with the Premier, in the absence of the Minister of Public Works, to consider building. "And whereas this route can be the straightest and shortest cross-province highway in Manitoba, and whereas Manitoba 23 is the most scenic of all east-west routes across central Manitoba". I will end there, Mr. Speaker, and only request the government to give consideration to building this road. I might be told, 'well why didn't you do it when'. Well, the government thought that No. 12 should come first and No. 59 and these two highways, most important, have seen a lot of action during the past season in the past few years and I think now if it were possible to construct this missing link it would serve Manitoba well.

MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The question before the House is the proposed motion of the honourable.... It has been moved by the honourable member for Roblin, seconded by the honourable member for St. Matthews, that a humble address be presented to His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor as follows: To His Honour, John S. McDiarmid, Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Manitoba, we, Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the legislative assembly of Manitoba in session assembled, humbly thank Your Honour for the gracious speech for which Your Honour has been pleased to address to us at the opening of the present Session. Are you ready for the question?

[A standing vote was taken.

YEAS: - Messrs. Alexander, Boulic, Carroll, Cobb, Corbett, Cowan, Evans, Gray, Groves, Hawryluk, Jeannotte, Johnson, Juba, Lissaman, Lyon, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Orlikow, Paulley, Peters, Reid, Ridley, Roblin, Scarth, Schreyer, Shewman, Stanes, Strickland, Swailes, Thompson, Wagner, Williams, Willis, Wright.

NAYS: - Messrs. Bend, Clement, Greenlay, Guttormson, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Jobin, Lucko, McDonald, Miller, Molgat, Prefontaine, Roberts, Shoemaker, Shuttleworth, Tanchak, Teillet, Trapp. ]


MR. CLERK: Yeas - 35; Nays - 18.

MR. SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that the address to His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor be engrossed and presented to His Honour, by such members of this House as are of the Executive Council and the mover and seconder of the address.

[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared it carried. ]

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that this House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

[Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared it carried. ]


MR. SPEAKER: It has been moved by the Honourable the First Minister, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education that this House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a committee to consider a ways and means for raising of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. ]

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Manitoba.

MR. SPEAKER: J. S. McDiarmid, Lieutenant-Governor. The Lieutenant-Governor transmits to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba estimates of further sums required for the services of the Province for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1959, and recommends these estimates to the Legislative Assembly.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a second message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

MR. SPEAKER: J. S. McDiarmid, Lieutenant-Governor. The Lieutenant-Governor transmits to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba estimates of further sums required for the service of the Province for capital expenditures and recommends these estimates to the Legislative Assembly.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General, that the messages of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor that the estimates accompanying the same be referred to the Committee of Supply.

MR. R. PAULLEY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, just before putting the questions, how soon will we be receiving the copies?

MR. ROBLIN: Just as soon as this resolution is passed, Mr. Speaker, the copies of the two resolutions of bills connected therewith will be distributed to the House.

[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. ]

MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the honourable member for St. Matthews to take the chair.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, we won't be proceeding into Committee of Supply until this evening as I understand it, so with the permission of the House and your consent, Sir, I would suggest that we continue with the Order Paper.

MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The proposed resolution of the honourable member for Inkster. The honourable member for Inkster has the floor.

MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker. I would appeal to


everyone that I shall not be very long and to stop the exodus if possible. Mr. Speaker, I am not in good health and unless I get about five or six minutes attention of the members, I'll forego my closing of the debate. That's not a threat but it's just simply impossible for me to do otherwise.

You will find in one of the Hebrew prayers a poem which I'm going to quote just one or two lines - it's a lengthy poem. It says, "On the first day of the year, it is inscribed on the first day of the atonement it is sealed and determined how many shall pass by and how many be borne" and so on. But at the end of the prayer there are ten words which give comfort for everyone. And they are, "But penitence, prayer, charity avert the evil decree".

I mention this because for years through their wisdom or otherwise, this House has rejected a similar resolution. At times they have amended it, we did not have the proper meaning. At times they have given something, the reasons for it we don't know and anybody else would know, because there was no record kept in the last 17 years of the procedure in this House but the journal tells the story. So they may have had very, very good reasons for which I do not blame them at the moment, and I am glad that finally the words "penitence, prayer, charity" has got them out of a lot of inconvenience, perhaps, as far as their conscience is concerned. Everyone wants to get the credit and many of them are accusing our group of bringing this matter up for political reasons. May I assure each and every one, from the bottom of my heart, that there was no political expediency attached at any time to a resolution of this kind. And I'll be the last man to take advantage, any kind of advantage, over the misery and hardship and tragedy of other people.

From the first day I came to Canada, I myself suffered, financially, religiously, and misunderstandings. I suffered economically because I had to work for fifteen and twenty cents an hour. I suffered psychologically because we didn't have a Bill of Rights, neither have we got it now. A lot of those who were here took advantage of their superiority against the immigrants who didn't know the language, and have done all kinds of, I would say moral torture, which is worse than not getting a job, which is worse than struggling economically. There was no Relief at that time; no unemployment relief and no social service of any kind. People just simply had to starve, hungry, unless a friend of theirs or someone else gave them a meal, or the Salvation Army had a soup kitchen and perhaps other churches here.

Later, I have tried when conditions had improved a little, I've tried to help others. How did I help them? By joining the very same organizations, not properly organized, not scientifically managed. But at least they done some good to help out those who are suffering, whether it's the young or the old.

In my years in Canada, I have served over 30 years in the Jewish Children's Aid Society which affected the other children, give everything I can, everything that is possible for me to do for the orphans until such time as the system has been changed, and the new idea of foster homes had been established. I have been for years associated with the Jewish Old Folks Home which at the present time is doing a tremendous good job for the old


age pensioners. Unfortunately there is not enough room to take all in but the people live down there comfortably, they have their food, they have their entertainment, they have their synagogue, they have everything that men of the golden age period desire. When I entered the council, I had been a member of the Social Welfare Department at a time when they have not had a specific way of helping the poor people out. What they have done down there is send in a half onion, one carrot, an ounce of salt, one loaf of bread, quarter of an ounce of beans, to those families who have suffered, and many of them were from the Mother's Allowances, too. Because they did not trust the mother of the three orphan or four orphan children to buy her own food in a place where she could buy it best. I've seen it. I've lived it through. I've fought it.

I've spent 12 years in the Unemployment Relief Committee; at a time that they have compelled people to box of wood for the subsistence they had given them, and not in cash, now they have the cash. It takes them a long time to realize they had the box of wood; and what do they do for food? They send them, they give them a list, you go and buy ten loaves of bread and so many of the other commodities. They didn't even trust them with the cash to go to buy whatever they liked. Going through all these day by day, dealing individually with them, I know the tragedy and I throw back at anyone to accuse me or to accuse our group of doing it for political reasons.

The honourable member from St. Matthews, the reverend gentleman says that we, that he is pleased that I have accepted the Conservative platform on the old age pensions. Yes, I have accepted and I'll accept everything from any party which is good. The statue of Moses would not have been here if Moses would have kept the Bible together for himself and not dispose it and dispose it and give it away to the people. Sure if you have something good, I'll take it. Take it anytime. And I'm not telling them that I'm telling the government that they have accepted my platform. Anything they say good, I will accept; the statue of Solon would not be here if he had kept his philosophy to himself. Every word, uttered by everybody, by anybody becomes public property. And if at anytime the reverend gentleman or the government will utter a good word, will make a good suggestion, in spite of all the criticism from any other party, I shall accept it. And that's why we have supported some of the bills here, because they were good. We are not going to reject anything for political reasons.

I'm not so pleased with the honourable gentleman from St. Vital. I would only wish that if he would give his good wife and children, his immediate family, to read this speech and read it over a half a dozen times, and then I think he would have received a good lecture from them. As a young gentleman just coming into public life, one day in the legislature, makes this very classic assertion. His group, however, no doubt had in mind putting the government on a spot with this resolution. This he failed to do. Putting the government on the spot for what? Asking for a loaf of bread for the old age pensioners? Couldn't he find other things to put the government on the spot? Is this a sympathetic


word on behalf of a new member in the House for 50,000 old age pensioners? And I do not know how many of the 50,000 have more than the minimum allowance to get - I don't know. I predict 25,000 but even if it's 1,000, if it's 100, is that the way to come out with the first speech in the House and make an assertion that we are here - political politicians -- we try to cash in on everything, even of an old age pensioner's misery and hardship and tragedy? No, Sir! If you continue this way, I'll be sorry for you. Don't need my sympathy? But I'm not any smarter than you. I've no greater education than you, but I'm older, I seen perhaps life a little bit better. Please, for your own sake, for the sake of your constituency, for the sake of your family, try to think first before you utter.

Friends, everyone of the 57 members here can take the credit. All I'm asking, all I'm asking is for the cash. The cash today, let them buy a loaf of bread; let them buy a package of tobacco; let them buy a little medicine. This is the only thing they're asking. You take the credit. I don't need it. I don't want it. My seat in Heaven or in Hell will be based on what I'm going to do in this world for those who need help and cannot get it. But give them the cash.

So now I'm not going to speak about the past. Journals tell us all about it, but I'm going to say a word now, a word of sincerity to the Honourable Minister of Health and Public Welfare. There are five lines recorded what he has said which I think will be remembered by many, many people, particularly by the senior citizens. He said, "Mr. Speaker, I can assure the honourable member for Inkster that this government will explore every avenue with expediency in order to make available a better way of life for our senior citizens in need". That's all we need, Mr. Minister. And I think in these few words, - and I'm sure that you have made this assertion with the consent of the government, - will give the senior citizens a ray of hope, that they are not forgotten. A ray of hope that some people think of them. A ray of hope that the government of the province is thinking and planning to improve their plight. It's true that the senior citizens is worrying about his meals; is worrying about his housing accomodation; is worrying about necessities. But the main tragedy of the old men and the old women, the old father and the old mother, is not so much the meals but his loneliness. He's alone in his room. He's alone in the unsanitary -- not sanitary -- no air-condition, in a small room dilapidated, with the paper hanging all over, with a little small light hanging around. All day he cannot go out because he probably hasn't good the proper clothes. He cannot go out in the winter. And he's a forgotten man. There's no special service. There's no one to come in and say "hello" to him. There's no one to see whether he's alive. There is no one to see if he's sick.

In your program and I hope it's carried out, you have all this covered. Let's break their loneliness. Let's take them out of homes. Let's create "golden age" clubs for them. You go down to the, every Wednesday, to the Hebrew Sick Benefit Hall on Selkirk Avenue and see the Golden Age Club enjoying themselves and getting a little bit of brightness in their life, at the club


down there. That's what they are worrying mostly. And I think that the promise made by the minister, I for myself take it a 100%, because I know he is still a young man. I know that he's not in politics because his medical profession didn't give him a living. He's here because he wanted to do something - I've got to assume this. He wants to be paid back to his parents for what they given him as sacrifice in giving him this profession. I know he is really interested. I have an inclination that I could believe him.

So my advice to you, Mr. Minister, is once you have made your promise on behalf of the government, - but it's your promise, you're still young, - stick to the promise, demand all the time, demand all the time from the Cabinet that this program that you have outlined in these few words, that the declaration of mercy, declaration of willingness to help should be carried out not tomorrow, but today, - from day to day - as soon as possible. You couldn't -- don't wait until the whole program is decided upon. Don't wait for that! Go on with your work day in and believe me, the blessing of our senior citizens will be upon you. You'll get satisfaction from your own life by knowing what you have done for them. Let your government take the credit if they wish. It doesn't interest me at the present moment.

I do wish to thank each and every one for supporting it. And I'm going to quote just one more sentence from the Hebrew book which I believe is applicable here. And this is the prayer for aged when they say, "To God in Heaven", and it says, "Oh cast us not in our old age". Well, this may be not true because after all each and every one gets old, and each and every one has to get old. But the second half of the sentence is the main thing, "Forsake us not when our strength faileth". This is their prayers today, Mr. Minister. You are to respond to them. Tell them that we are with you. Give them a small smile in their life. Tell them they are not alone in this world. That this government, the people, the members here and the community are with them, to those, especially to those who need their help. Take the credit, give us the cash.

MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? Those in favour please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay". In my opinion the "ayes" have it and I declare the.... Call in the members. The question before the House is the proposed resolution of the Honourable Mr. Gray. Are you ready for the question?

[A standing vote was then taken, the result being:

Yeas: Messrs. Alexander, Bend, Boulic, Carroll, Clement, Cobb, Corbett, Cowan, Evans, Gray, Greenlay, Groves, Guttormson, Hawryluk, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Jeannotte, Jobin, Johnson, Juba, Lissaman, Lucko, Lyon, McDonald, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Miller, Molgat, Orlikow, Paulley, Peters, Prefontaine, Reid, Ridley, Roblin, Roberts, Scarth, Schreyer, Shewman, Shoemaker, Shuttleworth, Stanes, Strickland, Swailes, Tanchak, Thompson, Trapp, Wagner, Williams, Willis, Wright.


Nays: Nil. ]

MR. CLERK: Yeas - 52; Nays - nil.

MR. SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. Adjourn debate on the proposed resolution of the honourable member for Gladstone. The honourable member for Ste. Rose.

MR. G. MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I believe the honourable member for Gladstone made a good presentation last night with the problems in the Riding Mountain Whitemud Watershed area. This is something that has been going on for some years. It has been discussed here in the House quite fully in the past. I don't want to run over the ground that he covered last night once again, except to point out that there is a serious problem in this area.

Now the purpose of my speaking on this resolution at this time is to set the record straight. The interpretation that the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture and the member for Gladstone and myself have on this subject varies. And he stated his case last night. I wanted to state our case in the same way.

As the resolution indicates, the Riding Mountain Whitemud Committee was organized in 1956. In the fall of 1957, they requested an audience with the then government. They came in along with another delegation from the south of the province in the Tobacco Creek area. They presented to the government at that time, their views on the type of legislation that would be required to achieve the purposes that they had in mind.

The government, at that time, was already considering legislation and this was a brief so as to get incorporated into that legislation the things they felt were needed. When the legislature met in February, the law, the bill that had been prepared was presented and it was passed. At that time the honourable member for Turtle Mountain, as I recall, spoke on that bill and indicated that he would like to see things done differently.

He had in view a provincial board, something of a larger nature, centralized, as I understood it, here in the Provincial Government with a staff of engineers and so on. However, the bill passed as it had been presented.

Now, later on, after June 16th, when things were different, the group, the Whitemud Riding Mountain Committee asked again for an audience with the minister who had been previously the member for Turtle Mountain, now the Minister of Agriculture, and they came in accompanied by the member for Minnedosa, the member for Gladstone, myself plus members of several councils in that area.

Now, the committee, at that stage, was asking for the right to incorporate under the act that had been passed at the previous session of the legislature. The minister indicated that there would be changes made in the legislation and, at that time, he was not prepared to let them proceed with this organization under the act. He indicated that he didn't know for sure yet what the changes would be but that he felt that at this time it was not suitable to proceed. The commission had not been appointed and so on.


Now, I realize that this doesn't quite agree with what the minister said last night, and I understand that there can be differences in interpretation. I am quite prepared to believe that he holds his views quite sincerely but I merely want to indicate that we hold ours in the same way. And the members of the councils who were there, I know when they left the audience, felt exactly the same way, and that is that they were prevented from proceeding at this stage. That was certainly the interpretation that all of them took from that meeting.

So that is the history of the Riding Mountain Whitemud Watershed Committee as it is seen, at least, from my side. It is the history of the activities that they have followed through, and of the attempts to get something done on the bill that was passed last year.

Now, the minister indicated last night that he has no objection now to their proceeding under that act. I am very pleased to see that he is agreeable to that now. As I stated, Mr. Speaker, it is quite possible that his interpretation is different than ours. Alll I can say is that all the people who were at that meeting had exactly the same interpretation as we did. And that was in July, he was not prepared to let this group proceed and they went back home most disappointed in the reception that they had had.

HON. E. WILLIS (Minister of Agriculture and Immigration, Acting Minister of Public Works): Would the honourable member permit a question?

MR. MOLGAT: Certainly.

MR. WILLIS: Has he read the newspaper report in regard to that? I will quote for him The Neepawa Press in regard to that interview. "One member said that the present legislation is only a start in any event and expressed the hope that the new government planned something more extensive and much more far-reaching." You've said a moment ago that that's the interpretation that all the delegation had. It's quite to the contrary. Those who were, shall we say, active politicians on the delegation, had the interpretation that all was well.

MR. MOLGAT: Well, I did my best in regard to it. Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that I disagreed completely with the statement. I said at the outset that there could be a difference of interpretation. I'm still prepared to accept that there might be, but I still say that at the time that that group came in, they were not given the right to incorporate under the Act.

MR. WILLIS: Quite wrong.

MR. MOLGAT: Now, if the minister is prepared to do so. I am quite happy that he has made that decision. I commend him for his change of opinion. I have no objection to it and I am glad


that this committee will be in a position to continue, get their organization and proceed. Because while I can see his point in wanting an overall provincial board; while I can see something to his argument there, having engineers and so on, I think that there is a great deal to be said on the other side as well. And the work that has been done by the Riding Mountain Whitemud Committee, strictly on a voluntary basis, in that area, is remarkable work. The fact that they have proceeded all this time, without a financial set-up, that would permit them to operate; the fact that they have accomplished a great deal from a stand-point of trials on tree planting; trials on water conservation; trials on drainage of water conservation and retention -- all this without having any specific incorporate body in which they could work -- is an indication of the work that can be done by voluntary groups. While on the other side, as the minister wants, the centralization, may lead to, in some cases, more expective work from a stand-point of having larger staff and more facilities. I think that we shouldn't forget, all through this, the effect of voluntary work on the local level. And that is what this resolution requests and that's what the previous act permitted. That is all that the members at that time were requesting. Now, if we could proceed on this basis, I think there will be a lot accomplished under similar sorts of legislation and similar committees.

MR. C. L. SHUTTLEWORTH (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to add a few comments to what has already been said. Certainly this is a very important resolution, both as the minister pointed out last evening, and as the member for Gladstone, who proposed the resolution, pointed out. I think it is particularly important when we speak of conservation of our soil and control of water, in this connection, Mr. Speaker, that we're dealing in a somewhat different phase of control work to what we have generally thought of in years gone by. The government, the Provincial Government, generally speaking, we work with municipal authority, or vice versa. But if we're going to have a really effective type of control in the future, a great deal of the work has to be done on individual farms throughout the watershed areas in order to get that control.

And so it is essential that first of all, an educational program follows legislation. And that is what went on up in that area there and, in fact, has been going on over the province for a number of years. And the fact that the Crops and Soils Branch of the Department of Agriculture has grown very rapidly in the last few years, indicates the type of work that is going on. It is absolutely essential that you get that type of co-operation and interest if we're going to have an effective watershed program. I was pleased, last night, to hear the minister indicate that they were going to go ahead and appoint a commission under the Act. I got the same impression when we met him in July, as the honourable member did from Ste. Rose, that he felt that the legislation was not adequate. Well, Mr. Speaker, I made it quite plain, when I introduced the legislation in the House last year, that this was just a first step. Now the Honourable, the First


Minister, the other day, in the House, called this legislation "a dog's breakfast". Well, I want to suggest to him, Sir, that there was municipal men had a great deal of time spent on this legislation; department officials spent a great deal of time on the legislation and farm people, back in the country in rural Manitoba, spent a great deal of time on this legislation. And now he calls it "a dog's breakfast". I agree that it is just a start, as far as the legislation is concerned. But, we have to realize that if we're going to get very far along the road in this respect, we have to be prepared for to take some of the authority that's invested in the municipalities and place it in the hands of watershed authorities. And we felt that the first thing that was necessary to do was to first provide legislation where watershed authorities could be set up. But possibly more important, Mr. Speaker, was to provide for authority for setting up of an overall commission, so that they might take this problem in their hands, and develop a plan. And, Mr. Speaker, it's not easy to develop a plan in this respect. I looked very hard at the set-up that they have in the Province of Saskatchewan and in the Province of Ontario, where they have schemes such as this, and there are plenty of problems in it. Because, right away, when you begin to talk of this sort of thing, drainage, water control, you get into the jurisdiction of the Department of Public Works. The average man out in rural Manitoba will suggest it should be all placed under the Department of Agriculture, and I agree with him. And yet, on the other hand, you have the important phase, that the Water Resources Branch, under the Department of Mines and Resources, carries on. And in other provinces, where they have tried to make some re-organization in that respect. They have re-organized, yes, but they haven't solved the problem. And, so, we felt that the first thing was to get the authorities commission set up; let them look at the legislation that we had on our Statute Books; let them look at the problems that confronted us, as far as the municipalities were concerned, and their authority, and then for to make recommendations to the government of the day. But at the same time we felt that where the local organizations were developing, the interest was there, that they should have an opportunity for to go ahead and set up their local organizations.

And so, I am pleased, Mr. Speaker, to hear that the minister intends for to go ahead with the act and set up the commission. I would be the first to admit that this legislation is not complete. What legislation in this province is complete? It has to be amended from time to time, and certainly, as time goes on, I would expect that there will be some very broad and beneficial amendments to this act. But I think we, to get along with the job now, is the thing that is important.

MR. SPEAKER: It has been moved by the honourable member for Morris, seconded by the honourable member for River Heights, that the debate be adjourned. Are you ready for the question? Those in favour please say "aye". Those opposed please say "nay". In my opinion the "ayes" have it and I declare the motion carried. Adjourn debate and the proposed resolution of the honourable


member for Ste. Rose.

MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I don't like to be constantly asking for to stand motions but in view of the time, which is almost identical to the time yesterday when this came up. The fact I've just spoke, I would ask the indulgence of the House that it be allowed to stand now and I'll speak this evening on it.

MR. ROBLIN: I'm an agreeable fellow, Mr. Speaker, and will raise no objection, even though it is the second time the request has been made. I sometimes wish we had the same sort of co-operation working both ways. Probably the honourable member for Morris would wish his item to stand as well for the same reasons and if it meets with the wishes of the House, therefore, I would be prepared to move the adjournment. I therefore move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that the House do now adjourn and stand adjourned until eight o'clock this evening.

[Mr. Speaker read the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House adjourned until 8:00 o'clock in the evening. ]

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Page revised: 3 April 2011