Manitoba Hansard

Volume I No. 10a - 2:30 p.m., Wednesday, November 5, 1958

Page Index


Table of Contents


2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, November 5th, 1958

[Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. ]

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions

Reading and Receiving Petitions

Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees

DR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, I would like to present the third report of the Select Special Committee.

MR. CLERK: Your Select Special Committee beg leave to present the following as their third report. Your Committee has considered Bill No. 2, an Act to amend Public Schools Act; No. 3, an Act to further the economic development of the province by encouraging the growth of business, and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments, all of which is respectfully submitted.

DR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the honourable member for Roblin, that the report to the committee be received.

[Mr. Speaker read the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. ]

MR. SPEAKER: Notice of Motion.

Introduction of Bills.

Orders of the Day.

HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to lay upon the table of the House, returns to the Orders of the House Nos. 1 and 3.

HON. JOHN THOMPSON (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to lay on the table, the report on the Royal Commission, enquiring into the Workmen's Compensation Act.

MR. R. PAULLEY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Honourable Minister if copies of the report are going to be made available to the members at this session?

MR. THOMPSON: Copies will be distributed almost immediately.

MR. PAULLEY: Thank you.

HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I wish to lay on the table a return to an Order of the House No. 5.


Mr. Speaker, if I may -- I am going to place in the hands of the Clerk of the House, a consolidation of all the amendments we have agreed to in Committee, on Bill No. 2. These are arranged numerically, and will, I think, assist the members of the House in our further consideration of the Bill. It will contain all the amendments.

MR. SPEAKER: ...Committee of Supply.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and -- the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

[Mr. Speaker presented the motion. ]

MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question?

MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Before you put the question, I'd like to....

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition): ...ask Mr. Speaker if, either the First Minister or some of the other Ministers will be making a statement on this motion?

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, it was not my intention to make a statement, on this motion, but I do intend to make a statement on the resolution to go into the Committee of Ways and Means. I'm trying to recall, from previous custom, whether statements have been made on supply, I suppose they have been from time to time, but in view of the nature of the business to be transacted in this committee, I did not think it necessary to do so. But, I can assure the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition that I expect to make a review of the financial situation, and some other pertinent matters on the motion to go into ways and means. And I--of course, the House will do what it wishes, but if--that might be a good opportunity to have a debate on the various matters.

MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): ...will it be considered a budget speech?

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, if I may be allowed to answer the question, I wouldn't call it a budget speech, we are not presenting a budget in the usual way, but I did think I should take advantage of the opportunity to give the House what information I can about the financial position of the province, and other matters connected therewith.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, so long as it's understood that we will have the opportunity of discussing any matters if we wish


to at that time, perhaps it's as well. My only thought was that inasmuch as the circumstances are a bit unusual on this occasion, that perhaps the First Minister would avail himself of the opportunity of making the statement first which might obviate some of the questions that would come up in the committee stage, but I have no point to make on that particularly.

MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to draw the attention of the House, an inequity in the matter of premiums in the Manitoba Hospital Services Plan. This is a problem that one of my constituents has at the present time. This involves a widowed mother, with four unmarried daughters, and one son age 17, now at school. One of the daughters is receiving the disability pension, and because of her condition, this makes it impossible for the mother to go to work. The three working daughters each contribute $2.05 per month, and the mother has been denied the right--at least one of the daughters has been denied the right to claim the mother as a dependent. I might say Mr. Speaker, that under the Federal Income Tax regulations, the daughter is able to do that. This makes a total annual premium for this family unit of $123.00. It is felt that one of the daughters should be allowed to claim the mother as a dependent under the Act, and I would ask that serious consideration be given to cases similar to this, Mr. Speaker.

[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote delcared the motion carried. ]

MR. SPEAKER: Would the honourable member for St. Matthews take the chair?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 1, Appropriation 6, first session of the twenty-fifth legislature. (a) (1) Members' indemnities - $56,000.00; Expense Allowances - $28,000.00; Travelling Expenses - $1,200.00; Opposition Leader - $1,250.00; - Total - $86,450.00. (a) Passed.

(b) (1) Speaker's Indemnity - $2,000.00; Speaker's Expense Allowance - $1,000.00 - Total - $3,000.00

(c) Salaries - Deputy Speaker or Chairman to the Committee as a Whole - $375.00; Sargeant-at-Arms - $300.00; Sessional Assistants, Messengers and Pages - $4,200.00 - Total - $4,875.00.

(d) Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals - $2,400.00.

(e) Legislative Printing and Binding - $8,000.00.

MR. STINSON: Mr. Chairman, on this item, I would like to direct a question or two to the Minister in charge of this section of the supplemental estimate. I think the members would be interested to know, in view of past arguments and past legislature, as to the cost of printing the Hansard, or the Debates and Proceedings in this House. I would also like to make a comment on the documents that we receive daily, as to the debates that are happening in the House. Now, I would suggest that--and while I appreciate that this is a new venture insofar as this legislature is concerned, I would suggest that serious consideration be given


to - in the future - to a proper editing of the debates which takes place.

I'm sure that all honourable members will agree with me that it is rather difficult to find, without perusing each of the editions, what has taken place in any particular debate. We are all interested in what each and every member says, and of course, being educated by the fine system of Hansard that prevails at the present time on the federal basis, we are used to that, and I suggest that serious consideration should be given to that.

And also, Mr. Chairman, while I appreciate full well the difficulties in the original start of a thing like this, on the part of the staff, I think that the consideration should be given, again giving due credit to those that are responsible at the present time. But I think that due consideration should be given the--an attempt to speed up the area of time from which the debates are made until the edition comes before us in this legislature. I understand that in Ottawa, the preliminary copies of the debates are in the hands of the members the day following. As it is now, we are now today, receiving copies of the 8:00 o'clock session of last Friday night. Developments have happened rather rapidly in the last two or three days, particularly in regard to the Speech and the Address to the Throne, and lacking the Hansard, some of us may have wanted to have made comments on some of the debates and contributions to the debates that other honourable members in the House had made.

We have grown particularly in this session, to come to a firm belief, that we can not rely on the recordings as published in our local papers. They have been so erroneous from time to time, that we cannot any longer, I feel, rely on them. And now that we have a system of Hansard, or the recording of the debates and proceedings, I think that it would be in the interest of all concerned, if efforts could be made to speed up, or eliminate the time lapse which we have at the present time, between the debates, and the time that we, as members, receive the debates. As far as editing is concerned, a number of incidents have been drawn to the attention of the House, that members' words have been slightly other than those that they thought they--or did issue, utter from their mouths. I don't think that--thus far, Mr. Chairman, that any great injustice has been done as a result of not being edited. But, I would seriously suggest more speed in order to get the issues to us, and that consideration be given to indexing the copies of Hansard, for, not only the benefit of the members in the Legislature, but those outside, who are following it. A further point to that, Mr. Chairman, I have found on going down to the Queen's Printer, that there only seems to be a limited number of copies printed, and, on a couple of occasions, have been unable to obtain, due to tardiness possibly on my part--maybe some of the other members have also found it so, due to tardiness, that the issue--that the number that have been mimeographed or printed have been exhausted. I just make those comments, Mr. Chairman, in the interests of further developing this idea. I think it's an admirable idea, something which we have fought for, over the years.

I think in closing, Mr. Chairman, it would be interesting to


know, in view of the past debates on this, what is the anticipated cost, and I do earnestly suggest to the members opposite that they take note of the points that I have raised, in order to make this even more acceptable than it is at the present time.

MR. E. PREFONTAINE (Carillon): I would like to say a few words with respect to Hansard. I'm one of those who has raised a few matters with respect to Hansard, but I would like to state that I do not agree with the honourable member who has just spoken, when he says that we cannot believe what is reported in the press. I believe that the reports in the press have been much more accurate than the reports that have appeared in Hansard. In most instances--I just point out too, another mistake of Hansard, which has just been placed on our tables, the debates on October 31st, 1958 - that's last Friday, and it's quite a few days. At that time, I spoke and I had some comments with respect to the Leader of our Group, and I said this, which is partly well reported, "Mr. Speaker, I for one am sure that Premier Campbell is a man of whom it will be said that he was not a politician, but a statesman, and, do you know the difference between a statesman and a politician? It is this," and I stated, and I would like ask every member of the House to try and recall what I stated, and it was this, "the difference between a statesman and a politician is this, the statesman is one who believes that he belongs to the nation, and the politician is one who believes that the nation belongs to him."

Now, according to Hansard, I said this, "Do you know the difference between a statesman and a politician? It is this, the statesman is one who believes that the nation belongs to him," and that's all. It doesn't report my speech, I'm sure that I made it, I'm ready to go and check with the Honourable the Provincial Secretary at any time. I'm sure that I made a distinction between the statesman and the politician. And, this doesn't make it - it doesn't make much sense. "A statesman is one who believes the nation belongs to him." That Hansard--it is quite an error. When I called the attention to the House the other day to a mistake, a mistake which happened on the first day, I was reported at that time of having stated that I had been chosen as Speaker of the House. The mistake happened this way, and when I went with the Provincial Secretary, we found out the machine was not synchronized to my desk at the time - if that is the proper word? And, the machine did not catch the first sentence. I stated that at times my age was against my being chosen, and the typist said "I have been chosen."

So, I say that it is about time that there should be some editing done because mistakes will carry on. I believe there is an improvement, quite an improvement in this report of my last speech, and of course it might be my own fault. I'm trying to speak as clearly as possible, but apparently I can't. But, there are mistakes that have been pointed out by quite a few members of this House. So, I think that in order to have something that will be quoted for a long time for the records, that it should be more accurate, there should be at least some chance


of correcting it rather than -- a better way than correcting it the way I'm doing now.

HON. MARCEL BOULIC (Provincial Secretary): Mr. Chairman, in answer to the question of the honourable member for Radisson, we anticipate an expense of $150.00 per afternoon session, and $175.00 per evening session. As for Mr. Prefontaine's comments about the few mistakes that might have come in, I understand that he will have corrected himself in just saying what he said now.

MR. B. CORBETT (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, in the reports of Hansard, I made use of the words dammed the river, in which it is spelled "damned". In my statements here I've "damned" the Dauphin River and I've "damned" the Fairford River - "damned" - which makes quite a difference in the meaning.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the last speaker point out how difficult this whole question of reporting is, and, I recall the fact that some people in this House, and another House, were very anxious to take me to task one time, because I mentioned about the Ottawa Hansard being doctored. I admit that the phrase was not a particularly expressive one--it certainly wasn't "Churchillian" English at all, but I hadn't been writing the speech out, and I just used the expression that came to my mind, and it still is a fact as honourable members who know the procedure at Ottawa are aware, that it is doctored. The Ottawa Hansard is doctored. And, that's what makes the federal members' speeches look better than when you hear the federal members. And, I'm sure that most of the people would not object if our speeches in here could be made to, both sound better and more entertaining, and look better in print as well, but, this question of revisions is difficult. The honourable member for Swan River mentioned that you can get the spelling mixed up a bit, and I think of the politician who was being reported by the local paper, and he was a veteran, and liked that fact to be mentioned, and he had handed out in his press release that he was a battle-scarred veteran, but the press report left out one of the "R's" in scarred, and he, of course was desperately displeased with that, and urged that they must make a correction. And, in the next issue they managed to correct that one alright and got that word right, but they got an "o" instead of the "a" in the first word. So, this question of making corrections presents its difficulties too. And, I'm not complaining, and I know I'm one of the worst offenders. I'm not complaining, though, that Hansard goes down as we speak our words in here. I'm not urging, and I don't urge a system where we are given the opportunity of doctoring as they do in Ottawa, because it was admitted in the debate down there, when the debate took place a couple of years ago - it was admitted that fairly extensive corrections were made, and, we folks who have watched them know that fairly extensive corrections are made in the Ottawa system. I do not advocate that. But still, the--this system leaves something to be desired too. And, I think it's rather difficult that some of us would have to read over our own contributions to Hansard in order to be sure. I'm glad to see


that my honourable friend and colleague, the member for Carillon, is so fond of his own speeches that he assiduously read them over again. I - if I were going to read the speeches over again of anybody in the House, I think I would choose those of my honourable friend, but, certainly I don't want to read my own over again. And, I don't think anybody else does, or not very many, perhaps they'll want to see what stand I took on some particular thing. I have always been prepared to leave it to the daily press to report it, and I think you'll always find that no matter how we try to improve this system, that we'll find that we press it in in this place, it'll bulge out in another. We'll continue to have difficulties with it. And, I still wonder if it's worth the expenditure. Perhaps some honourable members could say what's $100.00 per sitting, but that's just in my mind, symptomatic of the times. And then, I come to my famous complaint, the very fact that it is difficult to get an accurate reporting, and I'm not blaming the staff, I'm not blaming the staff, because I'm sure it's difficult for them too. Some of us do not enunciate as clearly as others. It's difficult to catch the interruptions, if you don't catch the interruptions, then the reply that is made to the interruption appears in the body of the remarks of the one speaking, and throws it entirely out of context. It makes us look a little more illogical even than we are when that kind of thing happens.

And, there's so many difficulties, but the other--in order to guard against that, the practice has been growing in this House of reading speeches. And, that's the thing that I object to. I don't object to the reading of answers by Ministers, because they must be completely accurate in those. And they frequently can't trust their memory, because often they're on technical matters and deal with facts and figures and things that must be put on--I don't object to the reading of the Ministerial statements and things of that kind. I don't even object to the reading of speeches, where necessary by new members, but I do object to the practice that has grown up, of people in order--ever since this recording system has been here, and I mention my Honourable Friend, the First Minister, if there's anybody in this House who doesn't need to read his speech, in addition to my Honourable Friend for Carillon, it's the Honourable the First Minister, because whatever...

MR. ROBLIN: He doesn't.

MR. CAMPBELL: Oh yes, he does.

MR. ROBLIN: No, I don't. You're quite wrong.

MR. CAMPBELL: ...but whatever else he does I give him...he has notes that are word for word, every word of them printed out. I've watched him on many...oh not in all cases, I'm not meaning in all cases, but I watched my Honourable Friend the other day...

MR. ROBLIN: I think, Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend will


just have to take my statement that I do not read speeches, that I think he is well aware of the fact.

MR. CAMPBELL: I have to take my honourable friend's statement for things that I'm not in a position to watch myself, and when I watched my honourable friend the other day, it was his Bourinot or Beauchesne or some other one of those large books up here, with the, with the...evidently, the speech all written out on it. And I asked my honourable friend if that isn't the case.

MR. ROBLIN: I already said, that's not the case, my honourable friend will just have to accept that as a fact.

MR. CAMPBELL: Well, if my honourable friend says that's not the case, I admit that I'm not in a position to see it as well from over here, as he is from that side, but, the point that I'm making is that if there's anybody in the House that doesn't need to stick that closely to his notes, my honourable friend is one of those people. And, I think it's a very great mistake that we should allow a system here to corrupt our good practices, which are according to the rules, that speeches should not be read. I quoted from the Right Honourable Arthur Meighen the other day and I remember hearing the Right Honourable gentleman give the judge's decision in connection with a debate, which was national in character, and he certainly gave an exemplification to my mind of how public speaking should be done. This is some years back. One of the things that he deprecated then, in the strongest terms, was the tendency toward--of reading speeches. And, I noted, although I didn't hear this one, that a short time later, in speaking to - I think it was the Canadian Club in Vancouver, that again he had spoken on that same point. And, I'm concerned about the fact, not just because we're breaking the rules, because perhaps we break them in other regards as well. But, if I might make an appeal to the House, would be to try and get away from this practice of reading speeches. There's a good reason for that rule being in the House, because the background of it is that if it's allowed for speeches to be read, then opinions might be expressed in here that don't originate with the speaker at all, but with someone from outside the House, who is--the old texts say, whose are not properly to be put before the House in that way. Well, I don't know what the answer is to all of this, but I certainly do think that we must get a better method of allowing minor and obvious corrections to be made, not by the Speaker himself, except by the method that we do it now, but by the staff, who I'm sure are competent enough that they can change some of these mistakes that we see in the report as we get it now. I'm not critical of my honourable friend the Minister, because this is a new departure and it'll take a little time to get it working properly; but I do commend to him some attention toward keeping very, very high quality of people, well trained people, on this work, and then give them some leeway. Them, not to we the members ourselves, except by the method that we're using here now, but to give to them the opportunity of correcting obvious


errors, because there's no point in having a competent staff of that kind let such obvious errors, perhaps as the one mentioned by the honourable member for Swan River, slip by and then have to be corrected in here, because it makes a lot of extra trouble for we folk.

I notice in one of the reports the other day, I didn't bother bringing it to the attention of the House, but I notice the wrong spelling for the word complimentary, I think it was when my honourable friend the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, in connection with Bill Number 3, although I'm not certain that was the occasion, had used the word "complementary legislation," and it was the other kind of complimentary. And it's things of that kind, now I'm sure that the staff who are working on that job are well enough trained, that they know the difference between the two, and I think a little more care would obviate a lot of these difficulties that we have to raise.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I must say that I agree with much that has been said on the subject of Hansard this afternoon. We are pleased that we took the decision to have a Hansard established in this House so there could be a record of the remarks that the members make in the House, and must admit that the reproduction of those remarks that appears in Hansard is not perfect. On the other hand, I think it's a tolerable effort. It seems to me, that, few if any of the addresses delivered here are what one might call literary works of art. And in the course of speaking, one follows a speaking style rather than a literary style, which means that occasionally you get interjections and parenthetical thoughts expressed as you go along, that you never do in writing, but which you do in speaking, and which, perhaps are a little bit hard to decipher, when someone is listening to those remarks from a record or a tape-recording machine afterwards. And while I can't speak from direct knowledge, I think it is the endeavour of the people who put Hansard together, to try and reduce what might be an ungrammatical sentence to something a little more suitable, and chop off some of the dangling participles and trailing phrases that we leave around as we speak in a debate such as this sort.

In reading Hansard, I do notice some errors, however, most of the ones that I see are not important. They don't really effect the substance of what was said, but perhaps they express it a little inelegantly, or they use a word that the speaker might really have not wished to use, but the sense is there. And I certainly have no objection, I think it all to the good, that those members who feel that the sense of what they have said has been in any way distorted, should take advantage of the moment before the Orders of the Day, as some have done, to make those corrections.

I am sure that those who are in charge of Hansard will take due notice of what has been said here and endeavour to produce a more workmanlike document. And I suppose that if we are a little patient with them and when the next session rolls along, when more experience has been gathered, we can expect a better product. And I can assure the members of House that it will be the aim of the


government, and I know the aim of those who are responsible for the actual work to improve the product that's turned out.

I, of course, agree heartily with the remarks that have been offered by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition about reading speeches. It's a reprehensible habit, as I have made it quite clear it's one that I do not follow, although I confess to him, and freely admit to anyone that wants to know, that I do prepare my important speeches, or what, perhaps, I may be allowed to think of perhaps as being speeches of some value, at least to me. And I say to the honourable members that I commend the practice of preparing speeches, I commend the practice of having notes when you wish to speak on any important matter, because it makes some of us a little more logical and a little less long-winded than we otherwise are.

MR. CAMPBELL: ...another matter, and it should be very appropriate before the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture speaks, I think, because I, just glancing through, thought I should raise the question of seeing to it that no favourtism is shown by the staff who are responsible for Hansard. I notice on Page 7 that there's an evidence of favouritism because we find that one member of the House is mentioned here, just simply as Mr. Roblin, whereas another member of the house is referred to as Honourable E. F. Willis, Q.C. And I think we should insist that reasonable fairness to everybody should prevail and that no favouritism should be shown, regardless of the merits of the individuals involved.

MR. ROBLIN: ...I'll let the Honourable the First Minister stand on my dignity if he wants to. I made a mistake there, didn't I? The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. I've been waiting for the time to do that and now it's come.

HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources): On this same point, I think, Mr. Chairman, it might be well to point out, that the first time that an honourable member enters a particular debate, I think, that they endeavour to give a full title, for that person entering that series of speeches, but if there are interjections or interruptions, the second or third time that that person is quoted, I think it might just say Mr. So and So.

MR. W. C. MILLER (Rhineland): ...such as the reference to the honourable member for Seven Oaks that I quoted.

HON. ERRICK WILLIS, Q.C. (Minister of Agriculture and Immigration): Mr. Chairman, I think there is a great lesson here for young politicians like the honourable member for Swan River, because he has learned this early in life that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, no matter how you spell it.

MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, I would like


to offer a suggestion for the Minister's consideration. In cases where there is an interjection during a speech unless the recording machine picks up the interjection that they should drop the answer made by the speaker on his feet. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but if you can put in the interjection then I believe it would be quite in order to put in his answer, but otherwise it leaves it meaningless.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution #1 - $104,725. Resolution #1 passed. Resolution #2, Executive Council. Gift re: Springhill, N.S. Mine Disaster - $10,000.

MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, what has been done by the government to stimulate the public to contribute?

MR. ROBLIN: I think it's coming along very well indeed, Mr. Chairman. I have been watching the results of that and I think it's well over half a million dollars now, and I think it's coming on very well.

MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say a brief word on this. I think it's admirable that we here in the Province of Manitoba, as elsewhere in the Dominion, are recognizing the catastrophe that happened this year and has happened in the past in Springhill, Nova Scotia. I think it is an indication, that we, the people of Canada, do recognize the trials and tribulations of all people within our Dominion. It's a very admirable step, and I'm sure that no matter who happened to occupy the seats opposite, that this would have been done.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution Number 3, Capital Supply. Highways, roads and related projects, structures and facilities. Construction and reconstruction and all works incidental thereto, including acquisition of right-of-way.

MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, if I might say a preliminary word, before detailing the program which we have on hand.

May I say that while we will detail today the largest program in the history of the province, there will probably be as well a winter session, at which time, if the Opposition is kind, or unkind, whichever it is, if we are still here, there will be another road program as well, so that the balance will come at that time.

We are introducing a program at this time, particularly in order that there may be an early start on roads next year. Indeed, we have hopes that some of those items which will be announced today will be partly constructed this fall, and certainly the bridges and drainage work will be done this year. We believe that by announcing the road program now, that in many cases, we shall save more than one month in the spring, because, irrespective of whether contracts are let this fall or not, we are going to inform the contractors, we are going to advertise in the newspapers, our intention to call for contracts in regard to various roads,


with the result that even though we may call for contracts in the middle of January, or December, contractors will already have been informed that they will be asked for tenders; therefore they will have a full and complete opportunity to examine the road, the soil and the rest, and consequently make their bids on an accurate, reasonable and fair basis. Having discussed this with the contractors, they are all entirely in favour of this method. They say it is fair. They say too, that it will save at least one month's construction in the spring, and they will be able to get on with their contracts immediately the frost is out of the soil.

We have been doing some planning in regard to planning, as well. And we have in reasonably accurate and final form our basis of approach, as far as planning is concerned, and we will be setting up a separate planning division, whose only business in effect, will be the planning of roads, on a few years into the future and they will then, as and when called for, turn over those plans to the construction department, who will then proceed to build the roads.

It is our expectation, as far as our highways are concerned, that we will at least double the number of signs which there are on the highways at the present time. We are convinced that there is a great lack of signs on our roads and in the near future they will at least be doubled.

We feel too, that a number of the roads which were constructed in the past were not sufficiently strong, were not built with the proper sub-base. The foundation was not good enough for the trucks and heavy vehicles which the roads must carry and consequently, we have asked the engineers to plan, as far as the roads for next year are concerned, including the present program, to plan to build heavier and stronger roads, where they have any doubt in regard to it. And they are very happy to do so, because, it would have been their choice in the past to have built better roads if the finances had been available. We have suggested to them that they should build on the basis where the road will last for a duration of several years, and that they should never again build roads which are cheap to buy and expensive to maintain.

We in this province, in the past, have built roads, which some people thought we got a bargain contract in years gone by, and nearly all of those turned out to be the most expensive roads that were ever built within the Province of Manitoba.

Take for instance the road from Headingly west, the old road, there. It was built at a bargain price, so they thought, and many of these bargain prices, no matter what you buy, turn out to be otherwise. And since that time, until the concrete road was built, which should have been built, probably, many years before; but since that time the up-keep and cost has been from 1200 to 1500 dollars per mile, per year, to keep that road in the bad shape that it was always in.

MR. G. MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, will the Honourable Minister permit a question?

MR. WILLIS: Delighted.


MR. MOLGAT: Could he tell the House in what year that road was built?

MR. WILLIS: Well, I think it was built in about 1935 - about then. That's about the year. The important--year was not too important. If you want to tie it down Mr. MacNamara was then the Deputy Minister, because I remember that he showed great pride in this particular road.

Then again, we are going to have a large program of bridges, particularly as far as winter employment is concerned that you may have heard of them. And I think when the winter session comes on we shall urge upon you, if we are here, a better plan as far as bridges are concerned, whereby the province will pay a larger share of the cost of the more expensive bridges, because I recall that one municipality during one year, when I was here before, had three bridges break down, each one of them worth $200,000. And what could a poor municipality do in regard to that problem, and the result was, of course, that two of them were down for several years, and the other one was built and the municipality was largely crippled as far as going across the river was concerned.

This fall we have already made permanent, I hope, a policy whereby approaches into towns and villages from a nearby highway will be built, with 100 per cent being paid by the province. And the member for Emerson has in a resolution in regard to it. May I say to him that's already firmly established policy in the Department of Public Works. The first road has already been built, that's the one into Carberry, off Number 1, and many will follow I hope, in reasonably quick succession, whereby the approaches from the highways will be built into the towns to connect with their streets on the same basis as the road which they leave. You can't always be exact in regard to that, but largely that has been the established policy. And when you go from Number 1, for instance, into Carberry, you go on asphalt of the same type and quality as the road from which you came. And in general that is the policy which we intend to carry out, subject to some omissions, perhaps, but very few.

We are going to have too, wherever we have four-laned highways, we will have divided highways and even some of those which have already been built will have dividers in them, for safety purposes of course, and also to speed up traffic. In connection with highways as well, the new Drainage and Conservation Board, which will have control of those matters, will be able to assist highways in a way which was never done before, by establishing proper drainage as far as the highways are concerned at the time that the highways are built, and that has not been the practice in the past.

And so with these preliminary remarks I'd like to say but one more word I think, I see I have one more note there. I have discussed with the chief engineers, the roads which, in the Province of Manitoba, have failed, as they say, and have broken down prematurely. We have tried to establish the reasons why those roads broke down when they did, and we have tried to establish new policies whereby in the future under similar


circumstances they would not break down in the way in which they have broken down now. In other words, they would have a better foundation, which I warn the taxpayers, of course, will cost somewhat more money, but which in the long run will cost them much less money than the present roads, such as the road west from Headingley, which is one of the most expensive roads in the Province of Manitoba.

For purposes of comparison the program which I shall outline to you is one for 33 million dollars of provincial money. In the program which was brought forth by the previous government and announced in the, yes, in January or February of this year, that program was one which on a comparable basis was slightly more than 21 million, whereas this one is a program of 33 million. And if you wanted to establish it rather more closely, you would have a comparison there of about the gross of some 23 million as compared with 35 million. The gross as far as all the roads and drainage are concerned.

Today the program which will be announced is entirely for trunk highways, and if perchance your bit of road is not included, do not immediately break into tears because that may be included, although not mentioned, because these are trunk highways.

And so following the discussion today, Mr. Chairman, I trust I shall be forgiven if I refer to my notes because there are 125 items, and I might perchance make a mistake or have an omission.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I'd not only be prepared to forgive my honourable friend for sticking very closely to his notes but, in addition to that, would he furnish the members of the House with copies of the notes? When he has finished, of course.

MR. WILLIS: I think it is not possible that we should have them. These are merely typed, but I wish to assure the Leader of the Opposition that they have been fully dispensed to the press, and I think, come the morning paper, you'll have every detail in there which I have here.

MR. PAULLEY: Will they be accurate?

MR. WILLIS: The press is almost always accurate. I've never had any trouble with them. Particularly in regard to...

MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, or Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Minister a question? If that information is available to the Press, would it also be made available to members of the House at the same time?

MR. WILLIS: It has never been made available to the members in the 23 years that I have been here, and consequently we didn't think it was necessary here, because, this list is a very long list, and if you have to wait but a few hours to see it in the paper, I think, and I trust, that you will not be inconvenienced to too great a degree, and that tomorrow will build you as many


roads as today.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I take it, if that's the understanding, then certainly it will not be intended to wind up this sitting of the committee today. In other words we'll be going back into committee, because obviously we wouldn't be in a position to discuss this without having a copy of the program before us.

MR. ROBLIN: Well I don't wish to rely too heavily on my memory here, but my recollection is that we discussed it without any notes of this sort on previous occasions and got it to the committee without any difficulty when we were in Opposition. It would be my intention that when the committee finished with the business, to report.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Leader of the House says that it was our practice to discuss it in committee, but if you will remember that in these times, the road, the Department of Public Works estimates, in particular the road program, took a matter of 1, 2, 3 or 4 days, covering several sittings, and I am sure that never in the time that I sat over there, positively never, did we have these placed before us and wind up the...

MR. W. LUCKO (Springfield): Mr. Chairman, I noted down that the Minister of Highways told us that there was no such a thing as statements prepared. I would like to remind him, and I will show him one--I'll show him for the back years. Here it is. That's what was given by the Minister of Public Works when we discussed the program of highways, the Province of Manitoba proposed highway program, 1957 - 58, the same thing as 1958 - 59, and here is a copy of it, you can have it. We've always had it. The Press got one and the members couldn't get one. That's the size of the business running in this House.

MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Minister a question for purposes of clarification? Did I understand him to say that some of the money that we are considering now is going to be spent this year? And another subsequent question. Did he say that the roads leading into towns would be of the same standard as the highway leading into the town, or past the town that is, but will it be the same standard leading into the town?

MR. WILLIS: That is right. And what is your first question?

MR. GUTTORMSON: Is some of this money being spent now on road projects or bridges, or is it being contemplated that it be spent this year?

MR. WILLIS: It's being authorized now, we hope, and then some of it will be spent this fall, some of it will be spent


next spring....

Now I do have four copies here, and I'd be glad to give them to the leaders of the parties if they'd like to have them, but that's as many as we have and while the honourable gentlemen makes a positive statement in regard to it, I know that when I sat opposite there that usually I did get a statement but it was usually two or three days after the announcement was made, and that's the way it was as far as I was concerned. I never had one to the best of my knowledge. I never had one to follow and I was all the time sitting over on that side, and I'll be glad to distribute these four copies. We're not trying to hide anything at all, or...

MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman is it possible to have photostatic copies of these schedules run off? I understand we have those machines available in the building, and I understand too, that it doesn't take very long to put them through.

MR. WILLIS: We'll be glad to give you any service that we have a capacity to perform.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to suggest that that be done because really I wouldn't want to take the responsibility for making all the comments that could be made with regard to these, and I seriously urge that every member of the House be given a copy before we proceed.

Mr. Chairman, I have no objection at all to the honourable the Minister proceeding with his statement now but I think before we are expected to proceed with it, we should have copies of this before us.

MR. WILLIS: We are at your service and we will try to do our best. I have brought down estimates here ten years in succession and never did it before.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to interrupt my honourable friend again but my rememberance is very clear on this that we handed out before we asked the members to proceed with the discussion of the program, we handed out something of this kind. The thing that my honourable friend asked for and that was not given was estimates of the cost on the different projects; and it was felt that it was not wise to give estimates of the cost because that was to a considerable extent giving information to those who might be tendering on the various construction projects. But as far as this was concerned, I'm sure that we did have it.

MR. WILLIS: I think, Mr. Chairman, that further discussion will probably not give us any more progress, and with your permission I would like to read the schedule. Trans Canada (East) Archibald and Trunk Highway 1E - Channelization; Trans Canada (West) - 3.2 miles Camp Manitou Road - Headingley, Concrete Pavement. And when I read the heading like that it will follow


along. In other words, the next one will be Trans Canada (West) until we indicate the difference. This is Trans Canada (West) 38.0 miles Portage la Prairie-Sidney, Seeding and Drainage; 10.7 miles Brandon-Kemnay, Seal Coating and Seeding; 2.6 miles 18th Street Access Road, Grading, Gravelling and Chloride; Trans-Canada Highway to the Seine River 5.25 miles, grading and gravelling; South Perimeter Road, C.N.R. Overpass and Traffic Interchange; completion of the Seine River Bridge. This is the south Perimeter .9 miles St. Mary's Road to the Red River, concrete pavement; Red River to at the south of the university there, the completion of the Red River Bridge. 1.9 miles Red River to Waverley Street, concrete pavement, 6.7 miles; Waverley Street to Oak Bluff, completion of concrete pavement; 8.4 miles, Oak Bluff to Portage Avenue, concrete pavement; completing of Wilkes Avenue Overpass; completion of Assiniboine River Bridge; Highway No. 2, 15.8 miles, P.T.H. #18 to #10 at West of Wawanesa, additional gravel and double prime; Souris River Bridge, the completion of the bridge; 9.1 miles, the Town of Souris to P.T.H. No. 21, Bituminous Mat; 21.3 miles, Pipestone to Saskatchewan Boundary, Seal Coat; Highway No. 3, 31 miles, Sanford to Carman, additional Gravel and Double Prime; 21 1/2 miles Carman to P.T.H. No. 14, base course and bituminous mat; four miles P.T.H. No. 17 West, Grading, Gravelling and Structures; 20.5 miles Cartwright to Killarney, Seal Coat; 18.5 miles Killarney to P.T.H. No. 10, Base course and Bituminous Mat; 11 miles Whitewater Corner to Deloraine - additional gravel and double prime; 26.5 miles Deloraine-Melita, shoulder gravel and Seal Coat; 4 East - 22 miles Lockport to Beausejour - base course and bituminous mat; 4 West - 2.4 miles Sharpe Boulevard to Kirkfield Park - Concrete pavement; 22.6 miles Gladstone to Neepawa - grading, gravelling and structures; 12.6 miles Gladstone to Arden Ridge, Asphalt Stabilization; 18 miles Newdale to Shoal Lake, Seal Coat; 27.5 miles Shoal Lake to Foxwarren, base course and bituminous mat; 20.1 miles Foxwarren to Russell, completion of the bituminous mat; Highway No. 5 20.6 miles Eden to Norgate, Seal Coat; 19 miles Norgate Corner to North of Laurier, base course and bituminous mat; 20.8 miles, North of Laurier to the Ochre River, base course and bituminous mat; 12.3 miles Ochre River to P.T.H. No. 10, additional gravel and chloride; 25 miles Gilbert Plains to Shortdale, base course and bituminous mat; 5.5 miles Roblin West, additional gravel and double prime; 3.5 miles Assiniboine Valley to West of Roblin, grading, gravelling and structures; Highway No. 6, 5.2 miles North Eriksdale to Mulvihill, grading and gravelling; Highway No. 7, 11.5 miles Komarno to Fraserwood, base course and bituminous mat; 15.2 miles Chatfield to Broad Valley, additional gravel and chloride; Highway No. 8, 18.4 miles North Perimeter to Clandeboye Corner, Seal Coat; 29.8 miles Clandeboye to Gimli, base course and bituminous mat; 18 miles Gimli to P.T.H. No. 68, chloride treatment; 7.5 miles P.T.H. 68 to Riverton, additional gravel and chloride; Old No. 8 5.3 miles Gimli to Camp Morton, base course and bituminous mat; Highway No. 9, 1.6 miles North Kildonan, concrete pavement; 2.5 miles South Boundary of East St. Paul to Hodinott Road, grading;


5 miles Selkirk Bypass junction with No. 9, base course and bituminous mat; 11.1 miles Winnipeg Beach to Gimli; Highway No. 10, Minnedosa River to the Valley, drainage; 17.2 miles Cameron School to P.T.H. No. 45, base course and bituminous mat; 9.6 miles P.T.H. No. 45 Riding Mountain National Park, Seal Coat; 17 miles North Gate Park - Ashville Junction, shoulder construction; North Duck River, construction of a bridge; 28.4 miles Swan River to Birch River, Seal Coat; 15.5 miles Birch River to Mafeking, completion of grading and base course and bituminous mat; 17 miles Mafeking to Red Deer River, grading, gravelling and structure; 23 miles Red Deer River to Overflowing River, Grading and gravelling; 18 miles Overflowing River to North of the bog, grading and gravelling; 20 miles North of the Bog to North of Township 52, grading and gravelling; 24 miles North Boundary Township 52 to The Pas, grading, gravelling and structures; 25 miles Atik to Cranberry-Portage, additional gravel and chloride, completion of grading and gravelling; 17 miles Cranberry-Portage to East Bakers Narrows, grading, gravelling and chloride; 20.3 miles East Bakers Narrows to Flin Flon, base course and bituminous mat; 20 miles P.T.H. No. 1 East to P.T.H. No. 4, additional gravel and double prime; 15.8 miles Brookfield Corner to McArthur Falls, base and bituminous mat; 12.2 miles McArthur Falls to St. George, grading, gravelling and structures; Highway No. 12, 10.1 miles Sprague to Middleboro, grading, gravelling and structures; 6.5 miles South Junction to Sprague, additional gravel and chloride; 13.5 miles Piney Corner to South Junction, base course and bituminous mat; 29 miles Zhoda Corner to Piney Corner, shoulder gravel and seal coat; 12 miles P.T.H. No. 1 East to Steinbach, bituminous mat; 13 miles P.T.H. No. 1 East to Anola, additional gravel and chloride; 53.4 miles P.T.H. No. 4 East to Victoria Beach, Seal Coat; and in the vicinity of the Brokenhead River, construction of a bridge; 16 miles Belair to Pine Falls, additional gravel and chloride; Town of Carman, diversion channel and structures; 11.4 Carman to Elm Creek, Seal Coat; 12.1 miles P.T.H. No. 2 Trans-Canada Highway Elm Creek North, grading, gravelling and structures; Highway No. 15, 13 miles Transcona to Anola, base course and bituminous mat; 12.8 miles Anola to Nourse, grading and gravelling; Highway No. 17, 9.6 Miles P.T.H. No. 3 to the United States Boundary, grading, gravelling and structures; No. 18, 6 miles U.S. Boundary to P.T.H. No. 3, seal coat; 13.8 miles Killarney to Ninette, additional gravel and double prime; 1.2 miles Ninette South Hill, grading and gravelling; 11 miles P.T.H. 23 to P.T.H. No. 2 Ninette North, grading, gravelling and structures; Highway No. 19, 3 miles P.T.H. No. 5 to Riding Mountain National Park, grading, gravelling and structures; Highway 19 .4 miles at Ochre River, bridge and approaches; Highway No. 20, 4.5 miles Ochre River to Ochre Beach, grading and gravelling; 2.5 miles Ochre Beach to Dauphin Beach, grading and gravelling; .75, three-quarters of a mile Valley River Bridge, grading, gravelling and structure; 7.6 miles Cowan East, grading and gravelling; 14.8 miles Camperville West, additional gravel and chloride; 20 miles Winnipegosis North, grading and gravelling; Highway No. 21 12.3 miles United States Boundary to P.T.H. No. 3, grading, gravelling and structures; 11.2 miles


P.T.H. No. 2 to the Trans-Canada Highway - additional gravel and double prime; 4.7 miles Kenton Corner to South Boundary Rural Municipality of Hamiota - grading and gravelling; 14.6 miles South Boundary Hamiota to McConnell Corner - completion of grading, additional gravel and double prime; 11 miles McConnell Corner to Shoal Lake - grading, gravelling and structures; Highway No. 23. 19.6 miles Morris to Myrtle - grading, gravelling and structures; 9.8 miles Myrtle to Jordan - additional gravel and double prime; 15.7 miles Altamont to P.T.H. No. 34 - additional gravel and double prime; 21.2 miles P.T.H. No. 34 to Baldur - grading, gravelling and structures; 16.4 miles P.T.H. No. 18 to No. 10 - grading, gravelling and structures; Oak River - construction of the bridge and approaches; Highway No. 28 -- Oak River is on Highway No. 24. Highway No. 28. 6 miles Cartwright South - additional gravel and double prime; Highway No. 31. 14.3 miles No. 3 Highway to United States Boundary at Windygates - completion of grading, gravel and double prime; Highway No. 34. 18 miles Gladstone to Austin - grading, gravelling and structures; Highway No. 41. 21 miles Birtle to Shoal Lake - grading and gravelling; Highway No. 45. 14 miles Junction P.T.H. No. 4 to Angusville - grading and gravelling; Highway No. 50. 6 miles at Alonsa - grading and gravelling; 7.5 miles Monroe Grade-Silver Creek, that's north of Amaranth - gravel and prime; Highway No. 52. 13 miles P.T.H. No. 59 to Steinbach - additional gravel and chloride; 8 miles Steinbach to La Broquerie - gravel shoulders and seal coat; Highway 59. 9.4 miles Morden-Sprague to United States Boundary - completion of grading; 26 miles St. Malo to United States Boundary - additional gravel and chloride; 8 miles St. Pierre to St. Malo - seal coat; 12 miles Warren's Corner to the Manning Canal - concrete pavement; 2.75 miles P.T.H. No. 59A to Warren's Corner - seal coat; 8.8 miles Birds Hill to P.T.H. No. 4 - shoulder gravel and seal coat; 14.5 miles P.T.H. No. 4 to South of Libau - additional gravel and chloride; 16 miles South of Libau to Gull Lake - grading, gravelling and structures; Highway No. 81. P.T.H. No. 75 to United States Boundary - base course and concrete pavement; Highway No. 83. United States Boundary to P.T.H. No. 3 - additional gravel and double prime; 40.3 miles Melita to Virden - base course and bituminous mat; Highway 83. 2 miles Maryfield Road to Virden By-pass - bituminous mat; 25 miles Assiniboine Valley to Birtle - base and bituminous mat; 6.5 miles Birtle to P.T.H. No. 4 - double prime; ten miles Inglis Corner to Dropsmore - grading, gravelling and structures; 12.5 miles Dropsmore to Roblin - grading, gravelling and structures; 12.3 miles San Clara to Madge Lake - additional gravel and double prime; 15.5 miles Madge Lake to Benito - grading, gravelling and structures; 23 miles Swan River to Benito - base course and bituminous mat and shoulders; Highway No. 89. Five miles Piney to United States Boundary - base course and bituminous mat.

And here are miscellaneous items: Whitemouth River Bridge - completion of the Whitemouth River Bridge; 12 miles Red River to Ridgeville Corner - additional gravel and chloride; 9.2 miles Ridgeville Corner to P.T.H. No. 59 - grading, gravelling and structures; 5 miles Beausejour West - P.T.H. No. 12 South - grading and


gravelling; 6.9 miles Broad Valley to Fisher Branch - grading, gravelling and structures; 2 miles Gimli to the Gimli Airport - grading, gravelling and chloride; 16.4 miles North Fraserwood to Arborg - additional gravel and chloride; 5 miles Sifton to P.T.H. No. 20 - grading and gravelling; 5 miles Riverton to West Ferry Landing - reconstruction; 4 miles Fisher Branch East - reconstruction; 6.1 miles Seddons Corner to the Radar Station - grading and gravelling; 1 mile Maryfield Road - grading, gravelling and structures; 3 miles Kenton to Virden Road - grading and gravelling; 1.5 miles P.T.H. No. 23 to St. Leon - grading and gravelling; 2.8 miles for Access Roads - Ponemah, Whytewold, Matlock and Gimli; 16 miles La Riviere South to United States - grading and gravelling. Total estimated cost of complete program - 33 million dollars.


MR. STINSON: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me as though the Honourable the Minister has outlined quite an ambitious program for next year, and part of this year, I presume, depending on what the weather will be, and also, of course, the type of construction. I would like to ask one or two questions of the Minister in connection with the list that he has given to us. How many, if any, of the projects that are listed in this list before us, are carry-overs of programs that had not been completed before or which had been contemplated before and not proceeded with? I think it would be of interest to the Committee to know that. It might be that the Minister won't have this at his fingertips at the present time and I'd be quite prepared, and I'm sure other Members would also, for him to submit that information.

And while we're dealing with the broad question of roads, it is true, as the Minister said, that most of these deal with the question of trunk highways. And in his opening remark, the Minister has assured us that these roads will eventually be well marked with signs that they will be stronger roads and won't be basement bargain roads. And I think that we can appreciate fully the desirability that that should be carried forward. I would like to suggest to the Minister, in the building of all of these trunk roads, and indeed, also, in many of our other trunk highways, that we have in the present, in the Province, that very serious consideration be given that where the highways cross railroads, that in the construction, that ample provision is made to provide for railway signals of the semiphore or flashing type. I noted some months ago, that the Federal Government has upped its contributions for this very purpose. I know that in my own constituency of Radisson, and possibly, Mr. Chairman, that the program outlined by the Minister doesn't include many of the problems that we have there, but we do have a very, very pressing problem of the lack of railway signals on many of our side roads as well as our trunk roads. And I make an earnest appeal to the Minister that very serious consideration be given in the construction of these trunk highways to the provision of warning signals to those that are using our highways. Also, I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister at this time, while at the present time we are not able to lay on a man where exactly these roads are, that in any program of road construction that is undertaken in the Province in the near future, that he should get together with the Minister of Education to make amply sure that the roads that are being constructed, are constructed in those areas where there is a particular need for adequate access to roads to the proposed new school divisions.

I read with interest the other day, that whereas we here in Manitoba have somewhat less than 6,000 miles of road, graded and gravelled, our sister province to the west has somewhat in excess of 35,000 miles of graded and gravelled roads. I do appreciate the fact that in the Province of Saskatchewan, as I read the article, there was only one mile of concrete road, and we have several here in the province. But I do think the effort made in Saskatchewan was on a...basis, in order to accommodate the larger school areas that they have in the Province of Manitoba. And I think that the Government and the Minister, in considering any road program, with its accompanying huge expenditure, should


take due consideration of the problems that we are going to be faced with in Manitoba on the adoption by the various school divisions of the larger secondary school areas. Again, Mr. Chairman, I say that we haven't had an ample opportunity to study the full locations of these highways. Many of them come to us as we read the report. We will have to give further study, I am sure, to them.

I was almost tempted, when I heard the Minister talking of his program, that it might appear to some as being a little window-dressing, but we've had that in the past before and I'm sure the Minister doesn't take a remark of that kind from me as being unkindly. But again, I would ask the Minister to give us an opportunity of studying this. I was very pleased to hear his opening remarks in connection with signs and I hope that he does include in the category of signs, something which he and his colleagues in opposition brought to the attention of the House in years past, that the highways be adequately marked on their centre strips in order to help lessen the accidents which we are having here, as elsewhere, in Canada. I think, Mr. Chairman, that's all the remarks which I'll make at this time. I suggest that they are constructive suggestions to the Minister and that he will take them under due consideration.

MR. BEND: Mr. Speaker, there's impossible to study this program in the few minutes that we've had but there are three questions that I would like to ask the Minister. No. 1 - I want to make sure that I heard him right with respect to towns lying off all trunk highways in Manitoba. Is my understanding correct that any town lying off a trunk highway will have an access road built into it of the same standards as the highway itself? No. 2 - How many, if any, of these projects placed in front of us today are already completed? And No. 3 - Are there any of these projects that were on the highway program as presented to the House in the last regular session?

MR. JOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I have one or two questions I'd like to ask the Minister and one observation. First of all, I would like to point out in my first question, or preface it by saying, it was a policy of the former Government to award contracts exclusively and solely to the lowest bidder. Will that policy continue or does the Government intend to offer some type of protection to our local contractors, both road contractors and bridge builders? The other question is, how does the Government propose to raise this 33 million dollars? Is it all to be borrowed? Third, and rather the point that I wish to make is that this is a substantial, a very substantial amount of money to be spent on roadwork. I'm surprised that the Minister said a while ago that they will be setting up a separate planning commission, and I wonder, Mr. Chairman -- or division -- I wonder why the haste to bring in this budget without that particular planning. And I say that particularly because the Minister, in this House on many occasions, has talked about the need of planning, and I agree with him. And I would also point out to him that last year the then Minister of


Public Works did lay out a plan for the future and I suggest it's a little unreasonable for us to be asked to vote 33 million dollars without the overall plans being given to us. I realize he's only been in power for four months but I would remind the House that any one of us that had suggested over the years that we should have some definite road in which we are going and planning for the future, that any one of us that found ourselves in his position should have, in that four months, been able to produce that supreme and that overall plan.

MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, as I understood the Minister, the program he's outlined here today will be started this fall and carried on into next year. Does the Minister plan to bring, to expand this program at the next session, if and when there is one? I notice on No. 6 highway that the Minister has - was to build 5.2 miles of new construction at Mulvihill and Eriksdale. Is no other roadwork planned on that highway next year?

MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could get...

MR. CAMPBELL: ... If the questions that are being asked properly, so that - there will be so many of them that I might not get the opportunity to make my general remarks along the lines that the Honourable the Minister did. I hope we can take it for granted that arrangements have been put into motion already to get copies for all the Members of the House. I think it would be very helpful if we had them for continuing the discussion.

Now, I was going to make the same point that has already been made, that after all the brave words of my honourable friend, when he was in Opposition, about the need for planning, that it seems to me that this plan follows just about exactly along the plan that the previous Government had laid out. It seems to me that there is on this program some work that's already underway; perhaps some that's already completed; and that, in other cases, it's very definitely a continuation of the plan that was already endorsed by this House at the last session. And, apparently, that plan has been found to be pretty good because it seems to me that it duplicates part of it, then follows completely along the line of a great deal more of it. Now, the place that the Honourable Minister says though, that he intends to break new ground, is that they're going to have an early start next spring. Well, I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, I'm not a - I'm not an expert on construction matters, but I suggest to you that that lies entirely within the realm of providence. It's just according to what kind of a spring we have, whether there can or can not be construction started so early as my honourable friend suggests. And the same with regard to the fall - not on the bridges, perhaps, and some of these other proposals, but as far as the roadwork is concerned. And the Minister did not tell us, or at least it escaped my notice if he did, that the surveying work and the details that are necessary in order to call for tenders has already been done or can be done in order to have the information that the call for tenders requires. And if that's been done, it must have been done while the present year's


program was going on. If that is the fact, then the great shortage of technical help that my honourable friend has talked about has apparently not impeded the progress during the year and I didn't notice that the Minister mentioned whether this year's work was largely or wholly completed. Now, if there's a -- seeing that the most of Manitoba has had a pretty dry summer, and up to date a pretty dry fall, it might be that in a dry spring that work could be constructed earlier than has been done in the past, but I think it depends a great deal more on the weather than it does on the plans that my honourable friend makes. As far as the doubling of the signs is concerned, I have no comment to make at all. If that's recommended by the experts on road building, I have no objection to that. But if my honourable friend suggests, as he has on other occasions in this House, that we're now going to build heavier and stronger roads than in the past, I want to point out to him that, as with a good many other things, the program that was carried on in the past was not just something that was arrived at by accident. It was a considered program and it was carried on in the light of the amount of money that was available, trying to stretch it over to serve as many of the people of the Province as possible.

When my honourable friend talks about heavier and stronger roads in presumably in all circumstances, I think he will find, in fact I think at a very quick glance at these, that the program that has been laid before us that he will find that some of the same kind of work will be carried on where the program will not be heavier and stronger, will not contemplate heavier and stronger roads than before. But simply carrying on the same policy of trying to stretch the dust-free mileage as far as possible even though it's known that those roads will break up in due course. When, my honourable friend says that the engineers themselves have said that if the finances had been available that better roads would have been built, I think that's not correct. It might be in some individual instance. I would like to remind my honourable friend, I think that public accounts will bear out the fact that when he was Minister in charge of the road program here many, many years ago, that there was a larger unexpended balance at the end of the year than there ever was before or since. In other words, he didn't even come close to spending the amount of money that was available to him and had been appropriated by the House here. Surely, surely, if he was getting advice from the engineers at that time, he would have built a different type of road, if that was his feeling then and the engineer's feeling.

So, Mr. Chairman, the fact is, I mentioned the other day, I'm sure this is - was borne out by the experience of other people, that you find the building of roads is a progressive science like a lot of others and that the heavier and stronger roads that my honourable friend speaks of now are a development of comparatively recent times, and we have been following that same kind of a program with the main roads. But I'm sure that my honourable friend is not going to follow that program on all the mileage that he's dealt with here this afternoon. I think it is rather misleading for the honourable gentleman to suggest that in such broad terms as that, that these heavier and stronger roads are going to be


the policy. Of course, the Government, of course the Department should keep up to the new advances but they can't do that with all the mileage at one time or else it will run to a great deal more than $33,000,000.00 that he is talking about now.

He has some very unkind things to say about the old number 1 highway, or the present number 4, west, as he has had before, yet, he mentioned when the question was asked if it was built back in the '30's; the grading if I remember was largely in about '35. I think the black topping was, as is customary, a little bit later but that was a good road for the times and in spite of all the criticism that it has received, I think that the maintenance cost was not excessive considering the amount of traffic that that road carried. And, the thing that my honourable friend must remember and I'm sure his engineers will bear this out, that you must be aware that we in this Province have perhaps one of the worst combinations that any Province, perhaps the worst, that any Province has to face anywhere or any state, because of the fact that so far as black top is concerned or the bituminous mat surface, we face the two hazards that, that kind of a surface has to meet more than, certainly more than is general and more than, I think, any other Province because the two great hazards are moisture and frost. And when you get them in combination as we have had in recent years, then the black top surface, the bituminous mat will simply not stand against a combination of excessive moisture as we have had for many years and then heavy frost as well. I think there is not another Province that faces that as greatly as Manitoba because Saskatchewan that has equally severe frosts does not have in general the amount of moisture that we have.

That was the major problem of old number 1, and it was, as I said before, a good road for the times that it was built in. And the more recent development of taking more land, widening the ditches out and keeping the moisture away from the shoulders of the road has been a development that has been very useful but even yet, and this is the recent development, it took the engineers quite a while to arrive at this because I'm sure that the engineers find that they attend these conferences and pay attention to the research of other jurisdictions but frequently those jurisdiction do not have the climatic conditions to contend with that we have here.

It took quite a while before this system was perfected and it's by no means perfect yet, of trying to keep the moisture as far as possible from the shoulders of the road to prevent that action of the frost. But even yet, even with that development which has been of considerable importance, they still recommend in this heavy, heavy Red River Valley land, they still recommend that even with those heavy black top roads and with the wide ditches and all this sort of thing, that it is still found to be better to put in concrete rather than the black top under those conditions. My recollection is that it's not a question, not a question of the amount of money involved because the real heavy black top, strong roads, as my honourable friend calls them, I think that you will find that the cost is not greatly less than that of the concrete roads.

And so I want to say, once again, that I do not accept, I was not responsible either at that time or later directly, but I do not


accept the criticism that my honourable friend has been anxious to heap upon the construction of a good many of these roads. They were roads that served the purpose at the time and if we had carried on in his time, he was the Minister not I, if we had carried on the policy that he appears to be advocating that - that all of the roads should be built to this high, heavy, strong standard that he talks about, then we would not have served very much of the Province of Manitoba with the funds that were thought to be available at that time. And my honourable friend can't do it now, he still will have to have the combination of different kinds of roads.

I understand him to say that these are entirely trunk highways that are being dealt with now and that a further program will be brought in later on. Well, that's all to the good but I do suggest to him that we should not try to close this Committee debate until the Honourable Members from this side of the House, all the ones on this side of the House have had the opportunity, each one having a copy of the program that has been laid before us and get the opportunity of discussing the individual roads in which they are particularly interested in addition to making any comment that they care to do on the general policy.

MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I want to make a few observations in connection with the proposed program. I was impressed with the many items that appeared, but I may say too that I was impressed that some of the items that should have appeared, should appear on the program were omitted. There were a great many million dollars which are proposed to be spent, there is not one dime provided for the "proving ground" of agriculture, namely the constituency of Rhineland although the need is very great. Millions for everybody but not a dime for Rhineland. I refer particularly to the people living south and along Highway No. 32, they have no railway access to their markets. They rely entirely on highway No. 32. This highway has recently been built, it has been dust-proofed and I suggest to the Minister that that highway will disappear unless it gets a bituminous mat on very soon.

Now, I realize, Mr. Chairman, that my honourable friend is a great planner. He planned so well during the years that he held office in connection with my constituency that in the ten years we did not have one foot of hard top. Although he made many speeches, there was no hard top. No hard top provided, no good roads provided for the most thickly populated agricultural centre in Manitoba. I suggest to him that if he plans as well as he did in the past in connection with Highway No. 32, I probably won't be in this House to rejoice with him that provision has been made for this particular area.

I want to emphasize again that this is an area that requires a good heavy road because the farmers have to bring their produce to market. They're diversified, they bring their produce to the cannery and everything else, and if there is any area in Manitoba that needs one of those roads that he is talking about, it is that area to which I refer. I sincerely hope that the Minister will not plan as well in the future as he did during the ten years that


he held office.

MR. TANCHAK: I would just like to make a few remarks about the construction in my constituency, that is Emerson constituency. A few years back this constituency did not get a fair share, I should say, probably the rest of Manitoba or the Members in this House, did not think that Emerson, that corner, the south-east corner of Manitoba, was worth while. But, in recent years, especially in the last four years, there was quite a bit of construction in that corner and I'm very grateful for that.

Now, we turn to the remarks of the Minister of Public Works. I noticed one remark and I was very glad to hear it, that construction will be started early next spring. Well, may I remind the Members of the House that it isn't every year that we can start construction early. I know of one incident in my constituency this last spring that we were ready to start a piece of road, the contractors were ready to go on it and it was as late as the first of June but they could not get there on account of road restrictions. They could not move their heavy machinery and that was as late as June 1st. The traffic would not permit that but let's hope that the coming spring all appearances it looks, it may be drier than last year and we may be able to start it earlier.

Another remark I would like to make about contractors. The contractors will be able to get busy earlier. I don't think, as far as I know, to my knowledge, that there was a shortage of contractors. I think if the plans are ready and the contractors are let there are enough contractors to pick these contracts up.

Now, another remark, and that's one of my favourites, in fact I have a resolution on it and that's access roads to towns and villages. I think it is a very good thing. The Honourable the Minister of Public Works states that that is in the policy. I don't know, I never heard of that before that it was the policy of the Government, the present Government. To me, I just wonder when it has become the policy of the Government. I may be wrong, it may have been for several months or it could have been, maybe, in the last day or so. I made a reference to it in my Throne Speech that I would like to see that implemented but I'm very happy that that is the policy as the Minister states and I do take his word, I have no reason to doubt, very happy that it is. And, there is one reason that I would like to mention here and that is our new school bill that we have just legislated. On account of that I felt that it was my duty to ask for these access roads because if we do get these larger divisions, larger school divisions, we'll have to have roads and I say that Manitoba is not ready for that kind of, for this kind of division or higher, larger school units at the present time on account of roads in rural areas. The roads are just not fit. Therefore, this, if it is the policy and I believe it is as the Minister has mentioned I think it's, we should give credit to the Minister for implementing the policy in.

Now the proposed highway construction in the Emerson constituency on the outside looks grand and, I agree that in certain areas there will be quite a bit of construction, especially in the eastern end of Emerson constituency, but I wonder why claim that some of these roads are going to be built when they are already


constructed. Take for instance, one of these roads and that is the Red River to Ridgeville corner under Morden-Sprague. I must confess that I didn't expect anything to be mentioned as far as the Morden-Sprague because as the Honourable Minister started off; he said it, Provincial Trunk Highways. I do not think that the Morden-Sprague has, it may be already but not to my knowledge, I don't know that it has been an approved Provincial Trunk Highway. I understood that it will be approved sometime this fall. But, twelve miles, 12.4 or so miles, 12 miles a little over from Red River to Ridgeville corner has been constructed this summer. Money has been appropriated for it last spring. It has been constructed and, in fact, I believe that the shoulders have been seeded in too. I don't see why - include it in this. I would like to have had 12 miles maybe from the 59 going east instead of repeating this. This has been, this was in the program last year, this summer.

Now, another road; the 59 south from the Morden-Sprague south to the United States boundary; it isn't quite completed but the contractors are working on it. There are two contractors on it right now. Well, I don't see why...say, of course, it will probably it will not be constructed, that it wouldn't be completed this year. But more than half of it is already completed.

Now another road; black surfacing if I'm right, maybe I didn't catch the road, from Zhoda Corner to Piney. That has already been black surfaced and it was black surfaced in July, I think. Now, another road that's mentioned there, from South Junction to Sprague. That road has been already constructed. True, it isn't perfect yet, it has to be brought up to better standards but, it has been constructed and gravelled. About...other construction here from the Ridgeville Corner to the 59, nothing has been mentioned about this in the past. That will be new construction. From Middleboro, or from Sprague to Middleboro, that will be new construction. And all the rest that have been mentioned are new construction.

But, I wouldn't like the Members to be misled here into thinking that some of these are going to be constructed. I'm sure that the Minister didn't mean to mislead the Members here, only I would like to draw attention to that. I will be coming to the Minister, pleading for some more work on secondary roads in the near future or in the spring. I'm certainly thankful for what he has seen to, to give out to Emerson constituency and I'm sure that the people of my constituency will be thankful too.

There is one more question that I would like - is it right that we will have that Morden-Sprague an approved highway and how far will that extend? I understood it was to Vita this year and, maybe, farther on next year. Or, will it be right from Red River to Piney Corner approved as a highway? That's one of my questions. I thank you.

MR. SHUTTLEWORTH: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a few comments on this program and I certainly re-echo what has been said here this afternoon when we haven't the details of the program ahead of us, it is very difficult to make any comments on it. We were only able to ... [Interjection] ... yes, maybe you'd better answer some of them.


Anyway, Mr. Chairman, as I was saying it's not possible for to go through the program the way we have to and I certainly think, Sir, on a $35,000,000.00 program, surely we should have the opportunity in the next day or so to give this program a good going over because it is a big program indeed. But, I think what is really interesting here this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that we're sort of on the tail end of what has been in effect, a big publicity campaign. This road program was first announced at a Conservative convention in this City some days ago. I don't know whether the details of it were given at that time, I didn't get an invitation to the convention. But, then along comes the road program today with much fanfare and when you look at the program, what is it? A continuing road program such as has been announced in the House in the regular session for some time, Sir. And now we have the ridiculous situation of the Press having been handed details of it and the Members on this side of the House haven't got it yet! And I think, Sir, if the welfare of Government was concerned in the first place, the program should have been announced to the House, the Members should have been given copies of it and then the Press should have been given copies of it and we would have been well along our way.

It certainly, Sir, been handled to me, instead of planning for future highways, it's been planned for publicity. And possibly, can be carried through that way and they may get some benefit out of it.

I believe that I did notice in the program that on the, in the construction of No. 10 highway nothing has been allocated for that stretch immediately north of Brandon. There has been an area there between Brandon and the Riding Mountain - Mountain National Park, that has been - being constructed in the last few years and I think, Sir, if it's a planned program that there should have been something started between Brandon and Minnedosa during this current year.

Then, I believe I caught one item, one item. And, this is an interesting one on Highway 24, and that was a bridge. And, Mr. Chairman, that bridge was in last year's program. I wonder why it wasn't built during the current session but, possibly, the Honourable Member for Hamiota will see to it that it will be built this coming year because when I was the Member for that constituency I urged for two or three years that that bridge be dealt with and I think it should have been dealt with at this current, during this year or possibly construction can be started during the winter months. But the thing that really interested me, Mr. Chairman, about this performance that was put upon...along here this afternoon, which sort of culminated, thought we were going to come in here with a road program and have the Members of the Legislature clean it up in a matter of a few minutes. I think there was more publicity than planning behind all of this....

MR. JOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I've just had an opportunity of going through the program here and as it pertains, at least part of it, to my former constituency but now pertains to the Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities, I'd say this to the Minister of


Public Works, do that particular work and I congratulate you on undertaking it. But, I would ask this House to bear with me for a minute while I explain the situation.

Any of you that have been up north from The Pas, from the Mafeking to The Pas, would realize that it is a distance of 100 miles and I suggest to the Minister of Public Works that it is a physical impossibility to carry out what you intend to do next year. If you can do it - more power to you, and I'll be the first one to congratulate you at the end of the year! Mr. Chairman, there are no detour roads in the area. You have 100 miles of bog, swamp, rock and yet the Minister of Public Works is going to, I wouldn't mind if he had said "grade" but he said "grade and gravel" and before you put gravel on, I, not knowing too much about road construction, assume that you're going to get your grade on first. And, if the Honourable Member, the Honourable Minister thinks that he can grade 100 miles of the road between Mafeking and The Pas in one year - more power to him. I would suggest as well and I would like to see and I, not only would I like to see, but if I was within my rights, I would like to make a claim to have tabled the engineering data on that hundred miles. Do they know yet whether they are going to by-pass the bog? Are they going through the bog? I'd suggest that the Minister has neither the money nor has, nor have the contractors, bearing in mind the other program in Manitoba, the machinery to do what he tells us he's going to do on 100 miles stretch of road in northern Manitoba.

I suggest then, Mr. Chairman, that this is pure unadulterated window-dressing and bunkum! He talks about planning. And I used to think that he knew something about planning, but nobody in their right mind has planned a hundred miles of construction, grading and gravelling from the Mafeking to The Pas, and I suggest if this is an example of the efficiency of the Minister and his planning on 100 miles in my area that I'm familiar with and that I know, then I suggest that if this is an example of it, then we certainly should scrutinize the planning and expenditure of this other $33,000,000.00.

MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, I used to think I know a little about roads and he speaks of the impossibility of building 100 miles of road in one season. We built 100 miles of road there in the old days of a sort...

MR. JOBIN: What kind of roads did you think you were buying? You built the poor roads, now we're talking about good roads.

MR. CORBETT: Just a minute, just a minute. They were good roads in their day and they've done their purpose but ... [Interjection] ... but, when you say it's impossible to build that, that -- you say is bunkum, I say your remarks are bunkum because we have practically an unlimited number of contractors that were cooling their heels all this summer because there was no work for them. And 100 miles now with modern machinery with...

MR. JOBIN: With no detours?


MR. CORBETT: Will, will -- is no difficulty to build at all.

MR. JOBIN: I said, Mr. Speaker, or Mr. Chairman, and I'll repeat, that if the Minister builds that 100 miles of road this coming year, graded and gravelled, I'll take my hat off to him and I'll say he's the greatest man in the world, but I say here and now that he can't do and he won't do it.

MR. WILLIS: Take your hat off, take your hat off.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, ask one point, one question now. When are we going to have the copies of the program?

MR. WILLIS: They're working on them now.

MR. CAMPBELL: But, those do not take long to run through this machine. Are they not ready for distribution now?

MR. WILLIS: It is highly possible we may have them this evening. We told them to run them as quickly as possible.

MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I see that everybody is hammering for the road particularly these people, Honourable Members - I'm sorry - on the extreme right.

A MEMBER: We sure are.

MR. WAGNER: I'm, first thing of all I would want to commend the Minister for announcing this highway program and he mentioned also that when the highways are going to be built he will take the water away from these highways. That is a very step, a very good step forward because in the past, particularly, I'm not going to speak in the whole Province of Manitoba. I didn't travel too much. But particularly in Fisher constituency the farmers are complaining. They were ready to sue the Government for draining the water from the highways onto their land and I hope, Mr. Honourable Minister, that you wouldn't drain the water onto the farm land but it will be taken away into a lake or a river or where it may make no damage to the farmer. But also, I am a little bit weary and disappointed that in Fisher constituency as I stated in the past, that it has been neglected. I see according to the sketch, didn't read it closely, but I'm getting only 11 miles of the highway. Well, that areas, as some Honourable member to my right stated, that if the school division comes in, that will never work. Because there is hardly any roads. It's just impossible. And, I believe if I understood the Honourable Minister correctly, that this is only a short and a small road program which is ... on to the trunk highway and I am looking forward, hoping that in springtime or the next session that is coming, or will be, or I hope, or whatever you may call, looking forward at least completing the road, the highway from Broad Valley to Hodgson, because the people took it for granted that they, it's going to be completed in spring. The highway going east from Fisher Branch to Vita, they took it for granted because they have been promised in the past,


and the Ashern road from Hodgson, from Ashern to Hodgson be completed also because they took, surely, for granted, I think they were promised even definitely by some Honourable Ministers from the past that this 1959 will be completed. So I plead on behalf of the people in Fisher constituency that this would be done and many others. Particularly, we are discussing it right now is the trunk highway. I would like to curb myself but at the same time, Mr. Chairman, with your permission and the House, I would prefer, myself, a little bit of side road because if we haven't got the side roads the highway does not serve the purpose.

MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I realize in connection with P.T.H. No. 8, which is now under construction, that perhaps it is not practical to start the modernization of P.T.H. No. 9 from Selkirk North to Winnipeg Beach, but I would like to have the assurance of the Minister that those 20 miles will be undertaken as soon as P.T.H. No. 8 is completed. Now, P.T.H. No. 9 from Selkirk north to Winnipeg Beach is one of the most patched-up pieces of highway in the Province of Manitoba, but that highway was not constructed by the Province of Manitoba; that highway was constructed by the late R. B. Bennett as a relief project and the contractor should have been sued for gross negligence in the construction. As a matter of fact, I was solicitor for St. Andrews Municipality after that road was constructed and the first year afterwards we were submitted a bill for maintenance which pretty nearly amounted to a capital expenditure. Then we had the Province of Manitoba take it over as a Provincial Trunk Highway but that highway is a very much used highway. ... [Interjection] ... Oh, I forget the exact year. Abandoned? By whom? It was a municipal highway up until the time we had this quarrel with the powers that be as to who should maintain it, and it was...

MR. WILLIS: When was this abandoned?

MR. HILLHOUSE: Which Government?

MR. WILLIS: Your Government.

MR. HILLHOUSE: We never abandoned it.

MR. WILLIS: You did.

MR. HILLHOUSE: No, we just patched it. We just patched it. The highway was never properly constructed in the first place.

MR. WILLIS: You abandoned it and passed an Order-in-Council abandoning it.

MR. HILLHOUSE: Well, I never saw the Order-in-Council, and I have never seen the P.T.H. No. 9 signs taken down from it, ... [Interjection] ... and I have always assumed that it was a Provincial Trunk Highway, and I think it has been a Provincial Trunk Highway since it was constructed by the Bennett Government.


MR. WILLIS: It was, but last year it was no longer.

MR. HILLHOUSE: No longer a Provincial Trunk Highway?

MR. WILLIS: That's true, the upper end.

MR. HILLHOUSE: Which end?

MR. WILLIS: The north end.

MR. HILLHOUSE: From Selkirk to Winnipeg Beach?

MR. WILLIS: No, north from there.

MR. HILLHOUSE: Oh, I'm not interested in that part north - I am interested in the part in my own constituency. But you're spending money on it north of there now.

MR. WILLIS: We had to.

MR. HILLHOUSE: No, we put down a bituminous mat last summer - it was included in last year's estimates. But I would like the assurance of the Minister that just as soon as No. 8 is completed, that work will be commenced on No. 9, because I wish to assure the Minister if that work is not commenced as soon as No. 8 is completed, that this Province will have to furnish a helicopter service between the north limits of the Town of Selkirk and the south limits of Winnipeg Beach.

MR. WILLIS: I agree with you.

MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to draw the Honourable Minister's attention to the eighth item on the fourth page of this schedule. I notice that it calls for the seal coating of 53.4 miles of P.T.H. No. 22. It is listed here as No. 40 to Victoria Beach. Now, that road was seal coated last year and of course, although it was seal coated last year, there was a considerable amount of patching going on that same year, and I wonder if the Honourable Minister means that they are going to re-do the complete road, or reseal coat it.

MR. ROBERTS: I direct a question, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister of Agriculture. I note, as the others do, or at least some of us, that there is a - Minister of Public Works, pardon me - that there is a definite lack of roadwork in my constituency, the constituency of La Verendrye, but I accept the answer that it called for work on Provincial Trunk Highways only and that these other roads that are so badly in need of construction are not considered Provincial Trunk Highways at the present time. But there is one thing in particular that I would like to ask particularly of the Minister of Public Works, and that is this: that at the last Session of the Legislature there was an appropriation voted for the sum of $100,000.00 for the construction of the bridge at Ste. Agathe and there was a further bill passed providing for the sum of $100,000.00 to be raised by the Municipality of Ritchot,


which the municipality is prepared to do towards the construction of a bridge at Ste. Agathe, and the people at Ste. Agathe have been given to understand that the bridge, or that the work would commence on the bridge this winter. I would like to ask why this is not in the estimate?

MR. GREENLAY: It seems to me, as we sit here and look over this program that has been presented that there are two or three very interesting points that come out of it. I had the opportunity, while the Honourable Minister was going over his new program, of following over the last year's program, and I find that in some 50 instances at least - I wasn't able to keep up with all of them and identify them - in at least 50 instances, the locations are the same as what was on the program last year. And in those cases, I am ready to admit that they are carrying on probably the program that was started then. I think that is as it should be; I think it is fine, but I think again it's another illustration of the Conservative Party carrying on the program which was set in motion by the Liberal Government before, and I am wondering, Mr. Chairman, what's going to happen when that impetus that was started and has been carried on, runs down with the party across the way. I wonder where they will go then? ... [Interjection] ... The planning that they speak of is not in sight as yet and it seems to me that they are just carrying out the things, in a great many instances - not only the road program - the program and the works that were put in motion by the Government that preceded them.

Mr. Chairman, I know that last year the then Minister of Public Works discussed, I believe in this House, the fact that he was attempting to have the work so arranged that a number of these preliminary surveys and engineering works on the proposed program for '59-'60 would be carried out during the summer and the fall -- this summer and his fall -- in order that this very same sort of system could be set up, that the letting of contracts could be advanced to an earlier date. And, Mr. Chairman, I am not too impressed with the fact that that has now been thought out and presented to us as the very great Conservative program. Mr. Speaker, the one thing that I do - or Mr. Chairman - the one thing that I do sort of take exception to, of course, is the fact that -- well, I don't know maybe some more of this streamlining that we have and I was accused the other day of making some very silly statements but I think we have evidence again of this streamlining. I think the problem with regard to this road program, the first thing we know they'll be putting the black top on before they get the grade in. It will be streamlining it so that, hurrying it up and streamlining it.

Here we have this program brought into the House this afternoon and with no statement, no detail, presented to the Members so that they could properly consider the various items and the whole program and expect it to be rushed through streamlined, shove it through, doesn't matter about the Members, give it to the newspapers, give it to the public, give it to the Conservative Convention, never mind about the Members, Mr. Chairman; they, after all, they just don't count. And Mr. Chairman, I


think that is one of the things that shouldn't be done. I think that when a program of this nature is going to be presented, it should be presented to the Members of this House. After all, not only the Members on the other side of the House represent the people of Manitoba, but the Members on this side of the House also represent the people of Manitoba, and I think that when we are slighted like that, it is a slight to the people of our constituencies. Mr. Chairman, I think that before we could give proper consideration to this whole program, we must have the details before us and have some time so that we can properly study it. This is a tremendous program, certainly it's being added on to the program which was set up by the previous Government, but I think that we should look well to it because I think the point of the Honourable Member from Flin Flon is well taken, that if you are going to take 100 miles of the one and only road, the one and only means of access into that particular part of the Province, and tear it up sufficiently to build in that kind of soil - in that kind of country, to build up a new road, there's not going to be much traffic on it and there isn't any detour, so that I think if that, as the Honourable Member from Flin Flon has said, if that's the type of planning, we had better take a good look at the whole program, each and every individual item on it.


MR. CARROLL (The Pas): Mr. Chairman, I was certainly very pleased to hear the remarks that the Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie has just made about #10 highway. I am just wondering how he and the honourable member from Flin Flon will reconcile their attitude and their statements in the House this afternoon with their campaign promises of a few months ago. Because I recall very clearly that the promise for #10 highway was that it would be black-topped by 1960. Now, he also made one other suggestion there, that we would be black-topping before getting grading, and I think that if that is their feeling as to how this thing would have to be handled, I suggest, Sir, that that would have been their attitude toward #10. That is the only way it could possibly be done by 1960, would be to black-top over what we now have, if they are correct in assuming that #10 cannot be built in one year. And for the honourable member from Rhineland, I would like to offer my condolences and suggest that our good friend from Churchill also has not 10 cents spent in his constituency, Sir.

MR. HRYHORCZUK (Ethelbert Plains): Mr. Chairman, it would appear at the moment that all the criticism that has been levelled at the Government this afternoon is justified. There may be explanations, there may be answers to come of it. There is only one question I would like to put to the Honourable Minister, and that is, what percentage, if any, is in the $33,000,000.00 that we're talking about, or what part of it was appropriated for the current year's expenditures?

MR. PETERS (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman, I don't have any roads in my constituency but the Government is building a bridge there, the Disraeli Bridge, maybe they could spend a little bit of money on the approaches.

MR. LUCKO (Springfield): A question to be answered are - I've got the statement here in the Press, says "Beausejour-Lockport Road Work Starts" and then says "Honourable Errick Willis, Public Works Minister, has announced Monday his department has started construction of four lane highway east from Lockport to the point just outside of Beausejour." Now my question is this. I'll go a little bit further, wouldn't be "hear, hear", when I get through with it. My question is this - is it a four lane highway, or is it a 24 foot black-top and the shoulder? That's my question, whether it's a four lane black-top travelling space, or is it a 24 foot black-top and shoulders?

MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker - Mr. Chairman, I hope the members won't condemn me for not reading my speech. - Thank you, I'll be over to you in a minute. [Interjection] The Honourable member for Radisson has asked as to whether much of the program is a continuation. Certainly in many cases it is a continuation and must always be, I think, a continuation. He asks about railway crossing signals - we have applied for several more, we would like to get many more - we're happy that the Government has enlarged its policy and we will be asking for more help in regard to railway crossings because many are badly needed. The


Honourable Member said that Saskatchewan has a better basis in regard to their grid system. Before I left here in 1950 we had already put in a grid system here and while he says they have a better basis, I hope he would be kind enough to say that they haven't got better roads though; although they have been coming up very quickly. Saskatchewan must get high marks because that Province was the first one to finish the Trans-Canada highway in Canada, and therefore they deserve a basis for it. As a matter of fact, the grid system which they have in Saskatchewan, they were down here in 1949 to discuss with us our system and it is likely patterened on that system because we have a grid system for every municipality in the province of Manitoba and had it before I left here. [Interjection] We have both proceeded, both Saskatchewan and here and I know the Minister very well and I know their problems as well.

In regards to signs, certainly we are going to have increased signs, certainly we need more centre strips, and as far as window dressing is concerned, I am completely innocent of any window dressing that we have done in regards to this matter. I must say to the Honourable Members opposite, though they have protested to high heaven today in regards to the way in which this is done, that I, the Minister, for ten years in succession did it exactly the same as it is being done today, without any change. And there was no criticism. Today, because we do it in the same way, then this is window dressing, suddenly, because we have done it and not their Government. In regard to the member for Rockwood, who spoke about the access roads. Yes, they will be built of same quality. We can't always build them 10 or 15 miles - it's a question of proximity in regard to it but there is one other question you had there, that this was the policy of the last Session? No.

MR. BEND (Rockwood-Iberville): The question was, how much of this program has already been completed? And the third question; how much, if any, of this program had been provided for at the last Session?

MR. WILLIS: To the best of my knowledge none had been provided for at the last regular Session. As far as we are concerned, to the best of my knowledge again, we have only completed one road--access road, and that is the one into Cranberry. We have planned many others and we have many that are not on the program today which will be built, but in general and it will have to be gradually, we will complete that program to the best of our ability, building access roads into nearby towns from highways with the same quality of roads that the highway is itself.

MR. BEND: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would let me clarify. I think he has misinterpreted. The access road was a separate question by itself - No. 1. And then the other two questions dealt with the overall program--how much of this program, if any, was completed now; how much of it was provided for in last year's estimate?


MR. WILLIS: I am glad to have that question. None of the present program was planned previously - this is all a distinct and separate program. The program of the previous Government is practically, completely completed for the year because we have had an excellent year, and we have of course, in many cases just continued on, on the same roads and built more of the same highway, and that is part of the road certainly, and the continuation of those roads was rather a simple matter, if one may say so, that you build it in a certain length of time, well, naturally, you continue it until the end of the road. That is what is being done, and that's not new or different. It is just natural, and certainly any Government would do the same thing in that regard. [Interjection] Yeah, I know. [Interjection] That is what I'm trying to give you.

The member for Flin Flon asks a question in his first speech. I liked it better than the second one. In his first speech he was asking for information in regard to the lowest bidder. I was here sometime and during ten years, no one but the lowest bidder got the contract at any time. It is true that in some provinces that is not the case; it is true that arguments can be advanced contrary to that and if I had a half hour I might speak on it, but in general we have not done it in the past. In general there is something to be said for, in some cases not always granting it to the lowest bidder, in view of the fact that in some cases it would bring employment to Manitoba and in some case you'll get bridges which are fabricated here but so far there has been no action and always, as far as my tenure of office is concerned, the past and the present, no contract has been let to anybody but the lowest bidder.

MR. JOBIN (Flin Flon): would you permit a question, please Honourable Minister?


MR. JOBIN: I'm sitting here wanting to write a reply to that question, and while you've spent three minutes you haven't said whether you are going to adhere to the same policy or change it. It is either yes or no.

MR. WILLIS: I thought the indication that we had never done otherwise was an aherence to that policy, I'm sorry!

MR. JOBIN: From here on in, are you going to adhere to that policy?

MR. WILLIS: It has not--we have made no plans to depart from it.

MR. JOBIN: That's not the question, Mr. Chairman. I'm asking a simple question. Are they going to adhere to a former policy or change it? And you are deliberately by-passing an answer.

MR. WILLIS: I am not by-passing any questions that you ever


asked at any time.

MR. JOBIN: Are you going to adhere to the policy or change it?

MR. WILLIS: Every policy can change. We have had no plans to change it. If you ask me whether a year from now or five years from now, I don't know. We have no present plans to change. How much further can I go?

MR. JOBIN: That's fine. That's good enough.

MR. WILLIS: The Honourable Member asks the question, is all the money to be borrowed? The answer is yes. The Honourable Member said, too, that there was no overall plan in regard to it. To a degree, he is right; because there has been no time for such an overall plan. We have made arrangements for overall planning and we will get overall planning and we have made progress in that regard. But having come in July 1st, it has not been a physical possibility. We planned it that way so that we are ready. We will have the plans by next year but even then, that is a short time. The Province of Ontario took three full years to lay down their plan, which is not yet complete, although they have been three years at it. But in the meantime, they were able to start with the commencement of that plan even as we expect and hope that we shall be able to continue on that. And the Ontario Department of Highways is helping us in our planning. We are very happy about it because their planning has been most successful in the opinion of engineers, contractors - and those who should know.

The honourable member for St. George asked if there would be other roads in 1959 and the answer is yes. I said that before and they're will be other roads in 1959. The Leader of the Opposition said that the previous Government had made plans along these lines and if that be so, then it is a great secret because nobody got to know about them.

The Leader of the Opposition has said that as far as this present plan is concerned, whereby we let contracts early, it lies completely in the hands of providence as to whether they will be able to start or not. I believe in providence and to a degree, he is right, but if the contracts are not let, no matter what the weather is, you can't start your work. What we are doing, is to say that we are making plans whereby if the weather is good they will be able to start to work early and save much time. This year, even after we came in power, many, many of the contracts had not even been called. The consequence was that there was a big delay at that time, but fortunately, due to the fact that it was a good season, they were able to complete the work. But there was a very bad delay and many contractors in the months of April and May had nothing to do and some of them went on into June, and scarcely a day passed when I didn't have contractors in my office seeking employment and telling me too, that if they didn't get employment their machinery would be taken back by those persons from whom they had bought it. As far as the fall work is concerned, those roads which will be commenced, the Leader of the Opposition said,


"Well, what about the plans?" Well, we have been able to make plans for a limited number of roads and we will ask for--bidding will be on at least half a dozen roads this fall or more, so that in many cases they will be able to get started in a way which wouldn't otherwise have been the case. But the important part of it is that they will be able to bid, the contracts will be signed, they can have their machinery on the job, be ready to start as soon as they have taken the frost out of the ground. Again, that's providence. But you've got to help providence once in a while and this, we believe, under any ordinary season, will give at least one month more work than would otherwise be the case, and the contractors tell me that that's exactly true.

The Leader of the Opposition said that you couldn't build these heavier and stronger roads all over Manitoba. Of course, he is entirely right. Nobody is going to attempt that. That would be pretty close to insanity for anyone to try that sort of business. For instance, if you build your road #75 as we did south from the city of Winnipeg, to build a heavier road because nothing else was any good. And also, that road withstood the floods of 1950, the leading engineer of the Canada Cement Company told me then and told me last week in Montreal, that that is still the strongest road in Canada, because it's got more steel in it, it's got more crushed stone it it, it's got more depth than 90% of the roads in Manitobian country. As a consequence, when the flood came and washed over that road, I walked under the road for 10 feet and it was steady and level and it didn't move an inch, because it was properly built at that time. Therefore, that is why we believe in the building of better roads.

The Leader of the Opposition is entirely right that the soil conditions in Manitoba are the worst on this continent, along the Red River. Consequently, we built a concrete road. It stood up and because our road stood up under those circumstances, more concrete roads were built by the Government and you'll see now that they build them out about as far as Portage la Prairie because that's where your soil changes and any other road won't stand up nearly as well. The Leader of the Opposition has said that "after all, concrete roads are not much more expensive than asphalt roads". No, not much, just about double--just about double. Therefore, if you'd built an asphalt road down to Emerson, as we built a concrete, it wouldn't be there today. You would have to get a search party to find it. But when it was built in concrete, properly built, as that one was, then that is the result. I do not know the recent costs in regard to highways because I haven't been close to them, but in round figures, the highway which we built in asphalt and the good one south from Brandon at that time, cost approximately $40,000.00 a mile, and the concrete road south to Emerson cost approximately $90,000.00 per mile, and I know that comparison at that time what changes there have been made since, may be of some consequence, but I suggest that they would not be material and that other things being equal the concrete road costs you, a properly built concrete road costs you, approximately twice as much as the asphalt road does. Still, we don't propose to build these heavier roads, but we do in many of these cases, which


is proven to be the proper course, we will be building heavier roads because those roads which were built, fell apart. Consequently, we will be building heavier roads wherever they are needed. Depends quite a bit upon your soil conditions, the type of road which you build, and it varies in various parts of the Province. You must build after you have soil tests the proper road for the proper location and that's what has to be done, and planning will help that greatly.

The Leader of the Opposition said that the maintenance of Headingly road was not excessive. In my day it was running $1,400.00 per mile per year. The other ones were running from $200.00 to $300.00. I don't know what he means by not excessive. Do you have a question?

MR. BEND: Yes, it is not meant to interrupt but it is meant for information. Then this particular program has none of that type of road that you are mentioning now, the type of road say from Winnipeg to Emerson, none of that type of road outside that five miles, was it, that's concrete is in this particular...

MR. WILLIS: No, only where it says concrete, and there is practically no concrete in the program. That's true. Now, it has been said, the Leader of the Opposition has said, that we face terrific weather conditions in this Province - he is quite right. Therefore, they have road difficulties - he is quite right. But we had no trouble with frost boils or anything else in regard to highways #75 in concrete, and #10 in asphalt, both built in '47 and '48, through there because they were properly built. That is still the solution. And since that time the maintenance of those roads has mostly been the cutting of the grass along the sides, at a time when in Manitoba the maintenance was running up to $1,000.00 per mile per year, and that is why that type of road is adequate for the location in which it's built - that's the whole thing. Adequate for the location in which it's built. The Red River Valley, like 75, requires a heavy concrete road. Anything else would be a complete waste of money. So in other places, take that fine little bit of road out of Gladstone towards Neepawa, built many, many years ago for peanuts, has stood up very well, considering the fact that it was hard surfaced. There it was - it had excellent soil conditions, and it has been a very useful road; and for the service which it's done, I suppose it is the most efficient road in Manitoba considering its cost, considering how long it has been a good road. So I do say that the concrete road is still much more expensive. Most parts of Manitoba doesn't need it but in the Red River Valley it is needed and every place east of probably Poplar Point like to the Ontario boundary. Concrete for the heavy roads where there is heavy traffic is probably the better type.

The Member for Rhineland complained, I think unduly that off the Christmas tree nothing came to him, but...

A MEMBER: He had his licks too.


MR. WILLIS: He had his...because he's got quite a nice mileage of concrete down there. He's got quite a nice mileage of blacktop and he's got one of ... [Interjection] and he's got one of the smallest constituencies in Manitoba.

MR. MILLER: And the heaviest populated.

MR. WILLIS: Yes, that's true and you've been well served. You have on the average better roads than most of the men who sit in this House and, as a consequence, we thought that probably we should do something for some of the others; you having done very well in your day.

MR. MILLER: What about 32?

MR. WILLIS: The Honourable Member for Emerson has spoken. He said that we should start early.

MR. J. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, will you permit me to make a correction in my own speech there?

MR. WILLIS: You go ahead and correct it.

MR. TANCHAK: Yes, I will, I like to give credit where it's due and I mentioned this Red River to Ridgeville Corner. I didn't have the paper before me and the way I understood that it was supposed to be construction. I'm sorry. I take that part of it back on that one item because I noticed, since I got the paper here, it's additional gravel and chloride. I'd like to thank the Minister for that. I'm sorry.

MR. WILLIS: I had it in my notes and I'm glad you made the speech. But in many cases it was a seal coat, also there is one seal coat there which is a continuation, and the criticisms of the Member were not right. He said, and agreed with us, that they should start early. He asked the question whether these access roads, whether they've been built the last day or two. We're not quite that efficient yet. The Carberry Road, it took us more than that and sometime you might take a look at it. It's in good asphalt and it was completed about a month ago.

Then the Honourable Member asked about the Morden-Sprague Road. There's been no decision in regard to that. It's a matter that's been considered for a very long time I must admit, by many Governments, but it's not yet been built up to a standard which would be a trunk highway. But it's not being overlooked, nor is it forgotten.

The Honourable Member for Minnedosa, I thought, was a little petulant today. I don't know whether the long days are getting on his nerves or not, but he said that this was a complete publicity campaign and I am innocent enough to believe that I had never thought of that idea. I thought this was just an ordinary program in regard to roads. To me it was old stuff which I had introduced on many, many occasions and on each occasion I had given the press a copy of the roads so they could publish it. We were a


pretty tight Government at that time and we thought that saved expense because they would find it all in the newspaper the next day, and there would be no difficulty about it, and they could keep the program forever in their vest pocket - $33,000,000.00 worth of program in one vest pocket.

And the Member complains, too, that we gave it to the press first and the Members later. I tried to explain that and again I'll confess to him that in the eleventh time of introducing that, they have all been the same. The press has always got a copy because we wanted them to put it in next day so we wouldn't get long distance calls and complaints and wires about people - like the Member for Rhineland didn't get their road fixed - so we wanted to put it in the paper in that way. The Honourable Member said that there was more publicity than planning. Well, I didn't think there was much of either. It was just an ordinary extension of the highway system and certainly we planned no publicity.

Now, I would return to the Member for Flin Flon who made not only one speech, but two speeches. And I would say to him that he must know, he must know that the man who is regarded as being the best man in Manitoba in the building of roads in that area, and who built the only road which is in that area, is now the Member for Swan River, and he gave you his opinion. And I will take his opinion over and above any man in Manitoba, because he knows more about it than any man in Manitoba. He built the road himself originally under terrific difficulties. If there was an expert in Manitoba in regards to roads that's the fellow - Bert Corbett of Swan River. I always consult him and he knows more about solving the solution of bogs and swamps than any man in Manitoba, otherwise, that road would not have been built. To say that it is 'window dressing' in regards these hundred miles, we went into it in great detail. We had many men there in regard to the survey. We consulted others who have knowledge of it such as the Member for Swan River. They said, "For goodness sakes, do it all at one year, do it all in one year, otherwise you will be the next fifteen years building the road, do it all now".

We do know that we may run into difficulties because of weather. That is the calculated risk which we can't escape. Even though we didn't do it all the time, when you get to the swamp, there is no detour, and it will be that way whether we built it now or ten years from now. You'll always run into that difficulty of getting through that swamp. But we have taken the advice of those who, in my opinion, know more about the building of roads in that location than any other living people. It's as simple as that. They say it's worth the risk. Go ahead. It is a risk, let's face it. You build that distance of road to conditions which are somewhat swampy - it is swampy. The calculated risk which we take after careful examination and survey and getting the opinion of the best experts there are for building this road so that we won't be interfering with traffic between Swan River and The Pas for the next 10 or 15 years. Build it now. We'll take that chance. Maybe we shouldn't, and maybe


you will be able to come back and say, "I told you so", but we've got the advice of men who know far more about that than you ever knew, and we are taking their advice.

MR. F. L. JOBIN (Flin Flon): Some day would it be fair to ask for that proof of that particular statement that you have the advice of the engineers?

MR. WILLIS: Yes! We'll have one stand up here if you like.

MR. JOBIN: The engineers - your department engineers.

MR. WILLIS: Certainly we have. We have surveys in regard to it. And they brought it here and laid it all on the table before me. They said "shall we take the chance? We are in favour of taking the chance", they said, "but you may be criticized". They said "Somebody may hop up and hit you over the head with this road". And I said "Well, my head is big, let's do it". ... [Interjections] ... Mine may be big but at least it's well covered.

The Honourable Member who has just spoken can take credit for having -- being the longest headed man in this Assembly.

The Honourable Member for Fisher has spoken. He said, what is entirely true, that there's much drainage needed in that area. There aren't many highways. If he had as many highways as the Member for Rhineland, I'm sure he would be most happy. But the Honourable Member is doing his best because he presented a motion here the other day asking in one fell swoop for a million and a half dollars. Then he said, but in addition to that remember the petitions which I sent in to you, so I had those calculated too. They were just a million and a quarter dollars. So he has asked for two and three-quarter million dollars of highways within his own area which far exceeds even what the Member for Rhineland might have asked. "What's a million?" as C. D. Howe says. Strange how the boys across there they can't help repeating it because it was heard so often down around Morris and Emerson and through there, and thereby it became quite famous.

The Honourable Member for Selkirk has spoken about No. 9 highway. And I was amazed to find out, maybe he's amazed too.

MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, I realize now what you're referring to when you rebuilt or replaced the old No. 9 up to the higher level. Perhaps there was a cancellation put through.

MR. WILLIS: That's right. You say it lightly as a good lawyer, you say it lightly. You called it a cancellation. They call it up there an abandonment. They cancelled the highway by Order-in-Council, and I assure you that we'll have to re-cancel the Order-in-Council and build a road and make it a highway because it's still a very important road. And that and that alone will serve the campers along there. But let me say in regard to


your constituency - you have Winnipeg Beach, don't you? ... [Interjection] ... Oh! That's yours.

The Member for Selkirk has spoken to me many times in regard to the fact that people going to the beaches needed help up there and I gave it to him, and I thought that was in his bailiwick, but apparently the Minister of Health who was also pecking at me in regard to it. You'll agree with those access roads, won't you? And so we have agreed to build them and they are most necessary in that location. Thousands of people go there and break their cars trying to get into those beaches over the roads which they've had there for sometime.

The Honourable Member for La Verendrye has spoken in regard to his bridge. We have approved it. We are trying to get it built as quickly as possible. We are in favour of it and I've had delegations in my office and it's a matter, I think, of the lawyers working it out more than anything else. We have agreed to put up our money. We want to build it this winter. We have been without arguments at all and we want to push it as quickly as we can.

The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie has spoken. By a strange coincidence he said that they gave the impetus to what we are doing. I never saw him supporting a program which we brought forward as well as that. And he said he gave us the impetus in regard to it, and what he meant, I'll never be able to tell you nor will anybody else.

In regard to the streamlining, the Honourable Member said that we might be putting on black top before we put on the grey. I thought he knew more about building highways than that. And I am amazed that having lived as long as he had, that he makes such statements. Somebody said he was making foolish statements here the other day but I think this gets first prize. In regard to streamlining, yes, I think that we will do a bit of streamlining in regard to it. He might even call this program, of having a fall program, streamlining because it gets things done much quicker than would otherwise be the case. The Honourable Member is afraid that we are going to shove it through. If he and the Party on his left have the courage of their convictions, they can stop us any moment so you can do that. ... [Interjection] ... Pardon? Do what? Get defeated?

A MEMBER: You don't have to get defeated.

MR. WILLIS: See me after the show, eh? So I say to the Minister of Portage la Prairie that he says they have been slighted in regard to the presentation of this road program. I assure him that for at least eleven years that I know of, it has been done exactly the same way by the same fellow.

Now the member for Ethelbert asks a question which I'm not sure that I know the answer. He said, "What percentage was appropriated before?" To the best of my knowledge, none of it was.

MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK (Ethelbert Plains): The question I asked is what percentage of the 33 million comes out of the ap-


propriations made for the current year.

MR. WILLIS: The answer is none, if that's the question.

Then the Member for Springfield, my good friend there, he asks whether that's a four-lane highway, and I didn't read that article. That's the first time I heard about it being a four-lane highway.

MR. LUCKO: Well, gosh. I got it.

MR. WILLIS: He says, is it a four-lane or is it a 24 foot top? I can tell him definitely it's not a four-lane but I think it is a 24 foot top. I've been over it but I haven't measured it.

MR. LUCKO: You're right there.

MR. WILLIS: We seldom disagree anyway.

MR. LUCKO: Oh, but we do here, we do here.

MR. WILLIS: You see me after too in regards to that.

This is a program in regard to roads or the highways particularly in the Province of Manitoba. Much of it has been planned -- most of it has been planned by the engineers in charge, of course, and to them goes the credit for the planning. We have a very good staff and it's going to get better because we are going to get more of a staff. We are now seeking engineers and we have now increased their salaries so that they are on a par with those, at least, in the rest of Canada and, as a consequence, we are hopeful and we believe that we will get more engineers which are badly needed.

This is the program. You now have the details in regard to it. I expect this evening we will be discussing it again and if you have more questions, to the best of my ability I shall try to answer them.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I think we have had a very good discussion this afternoon. The points have been ably dealt with by the Minister, in my opinion, but I would like to draw the Committee's attention to the fact that a few minutes ago we were able to distribute a copy of this program which was requested. We are very glad to do that, and I suggest that the Members of the House take advantage of the dinner recess to look this over carefully so that they will have the information that they say they need in order to continue this discussion tonight. I do not think the Committee should pass the resolution that is before us now, but rather that we should merely move that the Committee rise. And I'd be glad to make that motion. ... [Interjection] ... Well, there's two on the Order that have passed but those go through. The Committee rise and report.

MR. C. E. GREENLAY (Portage la Prairie): I think that before we take that action 'Rise and Report' we should be quite


clear on this because I think it was understood on this side of the House that we would be given sufficient time to consider the information that has been placed before us. I don't think the Honourable Members would have sufficient time between now and the evening session. I think that this should be allowed to carry over until tomorrow when proper consideration could be given to this program. It seems to me with the size of the program that that kind of consideration - it's not something that should be rushed through like this and I think it should be carried over to that time.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I have no objection at all to any length of time that the Committee wants to consider this. It's entirely up to their discretion. I merely suggest that we should continue the discussion tonight. Now, if after we have been in Committee and gone through as much further discussion as we care to do, if the majority of the Committee feel that we should not pass the motion then but should adjourn it for another time, you'll get no argument out of us because we are not interested in rushing this. It is a large amount of money. We do want every Member to have full consideration and attention to it. My only suggestion is that we meet tonight. If the Members are satisfied tonight when we come to this, to let it go, to pass it, that's well and good. If they are not, well then whatever the majority of this Committee decides. The Government itself has no wish in any way to abrogate or shorten or infringe on anyone's right of discussion of this resolution.

MR. GREENLAY: Thank you very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain bills and directed me to report the same and asked me to sit again.

DR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member from Winnipeg Centre that the report to the Committee be received.

[Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. ]

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture that the House do now adjourn and stand adjourned until 8 o'clock this evening.

[Mr. Speaker read the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House was adjourned until 8:00 o'clock this evening. ]

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